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Post by blackpantheruwm on Jun 26, 2010 1:35:57 GMT -5
The defections aren't over for you guys: www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/article_bfab7f24-240e-5100-97c7-70bbd8f08d84.htmlAt what point does the Valpo fan base quit making excuses? Where is the line drawn? I think we can all agree that with a decent amount of talent - Johnson, McPherson, Wood, etc. - that Homer Drew hasn't done the job you all expected him to. I'm not saying he hasn't been good; obviously the team is performing well up to standards. But you have to wonder what state the Crusaders would be in if they had serious continuity on the roster. Already in three years' membership of the Horizon League, Homer's team has had a different set of stars every year. I'm not saying that turnover shouldn't happen at all, but it's not like Bouchie or Haanpaa were graduates, ya know? I don't mean to stir up a quarrel amongst the loyal Crusader fan base, but at what point do you take a look at the situation and decide it's not going as planned? There are many defections; so the argument I hear coming out of NWI is that the players leaving are, for the most part, not good enough to play. That may be the case, but who brought them there? The question then turns into, is Homer's staff recruiting to the level the Horizon League demands of its contenders? There's no doubt that VU had one of the best newcomer classes last year, based on Johnson and Wood alone. But didn't you guys get the feeling, as many fans I speak to around the Horizon League do, that this year's 10-8 conference finish was overachieving? Perhaps I'm wrong. I do believe that Homer is probably one of the best 2 or 3 game coaches in the League right now, and there's no doubting the Johnson or Wood signings (or Jay Harris; kudos). But you don't have that kind of turnover without it stinking. A few years ago, we had to trim some branches off the tree. For the past couple years, our non-graduation turnover is minimal. I bring it up because a few fans up here in MKE were discussing the other day what the chances a Valpo team of McPherson, Wood, Johnson, Haanpaa, Bouchie, etc. would have done in the 2009-10 season. Doesn't the prospect of what could have been bring you to question, even the slightest bit, what's going on at the ARC? |
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Post by vu72 on Jun 26, 2010 9:20:13 GMT -5
Without any knowledge of what the transfer level has been at UWM, I can't say that the "pot is calling the kettle black". I can however comment on some of your observations.
Haanpaa turned pro, he didn't transfer. He undoubtedly regrets that decision because the team he signed with folded, I believe. Don't know what is up with him now. Bouchie? Do you understand what happened with him? Take a look at his success at Evansville. And the other transfers? Show me one who "got away" in the sense that we could have been much better if they stayed. Answer: None.
Now I will give you this: The recruiting has had some obvious flaws considering that some of these guys couldn't play at the D1 level and shouldn't have been on campus to begin with. Others were just not as good as the players we have or brought in. Kids today are not very patient and with parents thinking that their little one will be an NBA lottery pick, it doesn't help with the reality check.
I think you guys had better be very aware that Valpo will be a contender for the title next year. I know I'll get blasted as a "homer" (no pun intended!) but consider a few things: 1. (and I've posted this before) IF, and I know it is a big if) Valpo's team defense gave up just 6 fewer points per game last year--which would have left them in the middle of the pack in the Horizon, we would have won 22 games and finished tied for second. 2. We lose one player who played significant minutes, but with a bad wheel. 3. Consider how difficult it must have been to put 8 new guys into a team, get used to each other, get a rotation working and still finish 10-8 in the conference. did I mention that most of those were freshman? 4. Homer brought in 2 guys (Johnson and Wood) who were second team all conference. Both could have easily been first team--particularly Johnson who was better statistically than Howard and went for 28 against him in the last conference game. 5. If we had an offensive weakness last year, it was at the point. Tommy Kurth was a great distributor of the basketball and didn't turn it over, nonetheless, he was not a scorer. Enter a first team (or second team if you like) All Illinois guard named Jay Harris. The second highest ranked player coming into the Horizon. The kid is a scoring machine. 6. Do you actually think that Broekhoff and Kenney won't be better this year, after one full year at the D1 level? Think again. 7. It appears that we may have found that added strength up front via the Dutch/Spanish kid coming in. If we have then all bets are off.
So you admit Homer is a great game coach. Thanks, welcome to the reality zone. Ask Rob Jeter about kids today and their attitudes, or any D1 coach, or any coach for that matter. It is becoming increasing difficult to keep kids happy. Homer Drew takes very good care of his players. The transfers are making a big mistake if they see greener pastures and, they are giving up a top flight education, for what? The CHANCE to play more? As said earlier, none have shown that they can. For the good of the team, and our record, I'm glad they did decide to leave as we are/have replaced them with better players.
Sorry about the rambling, I guess you caught me with too much coffee in my system!
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Post by valpo89 on Jun 26, 2010 9:48:40 GMT -5
As usual, awesome response 72. You always give me hope. That's why I was so disappointed Halvorsen didn't pan out.
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Post by blackpantheruwm on Jun 26, 2010 11:39:06 GMT -5
Trust me, everyone outside Indianapolis knows Johnson was better than Howard. Hell, there were 3-4 guys who were better than Howard across the conference.
I'm glad that you're talking a lot; we need more long-winded people on the boards.
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Post by indyvalpo on Jun 26, 2010 11:57:29 GMT -5
There is no doubt, there are questions about our recruiting. Lots of misses. We are in cycle of players leaving and reaching for replacements. Not a real recipe for success. I think we took Williams, Fumey and Milesovec sight unseen. Not a guaranteed failure, but a risk.
The other thing, Homer has never been good with substitutions. How many times last year could he have found some minutes for Halvorsen? I remember this way back to our first NCAA trip where the game was essentially over in the first minute. We lost by 30-40 points and we did not play everyone. Once again a little PT doesn't guarantee success but helps morale.
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Post by wh on Jun 26, 2010 21:29:01 GMT -5
The defections aren't over for you guys: www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/article_bfab7f24-240e-5100-97c7-70bbd8f08d84.html At what point does the Valpo fan base quit making excuses? Where is the line drawn? I think we can all agree that with a decent amount of talent - Johnson, McPherson, Wood, etc. - that Homer Drew hasn't done the job you all expected him to. I'm not saying he hasn't been good; obviously the team is performing well up to standards. But you have to wonder what state the Crusaders would be in if they had serious continuity on the roster. Already in three years' membership of the Horizon League, Homer's team has had a different set of stars every year. I'm not saying that turnover shouldn't happen at all, but it's not like Bouchie or Haanpaa were graduates, ya know? I don't mean to stir up a quarrel amongst the loyal Crusader fan base, but at what point do you take a look at the situation and decide it's not going as planned? There are many defections; so the argument I hear coming out of NWI is that the players leaving are, for the most part, not good enough to play. That may be the case, but who brought them there? The question then turns into, is Homer's staff recruiting to the level the Horizon League demands of its contenders? There's no doubt that VU had one of the best newcomer classes last year, based on Johnson and Wood alone. But didn't you guys get the feeling, as many fans I speak to around the Horizon League do, that this year's 10-8 conference finish was overachieving? Perhaps I'm wrong. I do believe that Homer is probably one of the best 2 or 3 game coaches in the League right now, and there's no doubting the Johnson or Wood signings (or Jay Harris; kudos). But you don't have that kind of turnover without it stinking. A few years ago, we had to trim some branches off the tree. For the past couple years, our non-graduation turnover is minimal. I bring it up because a few fans up here in MKE were discussing the other day what the chances a Valpo team of McPherson, Wood, Johnson, Haanpaa, Bouchie, etc. would have done in the 2009-10 season. Doesn't the prospect of what could have been bring you to question, even the slightest bit, what's going on at the ARC? Unless you offered up the same criticism on the Detroit board (and I don't think you did), your argument rings pretty hollow. At the same time we had two players transfer, Detroit had four. And, those four – Curtis Eatmon, Jordan Fee, Xavier Keeling and Lamar Lee - were a much bigger part of Detroit's team than Milosovic and Halvorsen were of ours. But, instead of criticizing McCallum for running off 4 players, everyone in the league is slobbering all over him because he signed his kid and a couple of high profile junior college transfers. Here's some facts to consider. It's projected that 300 D-1 players will transfer in 2010. That's nearly one/team. According to a BLS study, the average Gen X/Gen Y worker in today's workforce will have 10.8 employers over the course of their working career. To measure a coach's performance by the number of players he keeps is pretty insignificant in today's world. It's what he does with who he has while he has them is all that counts. |
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Post by bigdwsu on Jun 27, 2010 9:12:21 GMT -5
Unless you offered up the same criticism on the Detroit board (and I don't think you did), your argument rings pretty hollow. At the same time we had two players transfer, Detroit had four. And, those four – Curtis Eatmon, Jordan Fee, Xavier Keeling and Lamar Lee - were a much bigger part of Detroit's team than Milosovic and Halvorsen were of ours. But, instead of criticizing McCallum for running off 4 players, everyone in the league is slobbering all over him because he signed his kid and a couple of high profile junior college transfers. Most HL fans are "slobbering" over what Detroit did in recruiting because they completely upgraded their roster. They lost 4 players, but the 8 new faces they will have on their roster next year should allow them to compete for the top spot in the HL next year. Can you say that about your roster? Is Jay Harris going to be an upgrade over McPherson? Is your new foreign post player going to be better than Milosovic and Halvorsen? Maybe. I don't know, but I doubt you see the improvement on your team that Detroit should see with the upgrades they made on their roster. Here are the players that Detroit is adding to their roster: 1) Ray McCallum Jr (6-2, PG) Detroit, MI. As a senior, he averaged 23 points, 7 rebounds, and 6 assists. 2) Jason Calliste (6-2, SG) Winston-Salem, NC. As a senior, he averaged 24 points and 11 assists. 3) Shayar Lee (6-4, SG) Phoenix, AZ. As a JUCO sophomore, he averaged 15 points and 5 rebounds. 4) Chris Blake (6-4, SG) Athens, TX. As a JUCO sophomore, he averaged 19 points and 6 rebounds. 5) Frank Williams (6-5, SF) Raytown, MO. As a senior, he averaged 18 points, 4 rebounds, and 2 assists. 6) Evan Bruinsma (6-7, SF) Muskegon, MI. As a senior, he averaged 21 points, 10 rebounds and 3 assists. 7) Nick Minnerath (6-8, PF) Truro, MA. As a JUCO sophomore, he averaged 21 points and 8 rebounds. 8) LaMarcus Lowe (6-11, C) Flint, MI. As a freshman at Western Michigan, he averaged 2 points, 3 rebounds, and 2 blocks. McCallum is a McDonald's All-American and 1 of 2 top 150 national players that Detroit added. Jason Calliste was a top 150 guy in 2009, but had to sit out this year until Detroit could get him through the NCAA clearinghouse. Chris Blake and Nick Minnerath are both JUCO All-Americans. LaMarcus Lowe is a defensive machine. He lead the MAC in blocked shots as a true freshman even though he only played limited minutes. The other 3 members of their class aren't as highly rated but I think almost any HL team would have been happy to add them to their roster. If McCallum is able to get that roster to gel, they are going to be one tough team next year. |
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Post by vu72 on Jun 27, 2010 10:16:32 GMT -5
Unless you offered up the same criticism on the Detroit board (and I don't think you did), your argument rings pretty hollow. At the same time we had two players transfer, Detroit had four. And, those four – Curtis Eatmon, Jordan Fee, Xavier Keeling and Lamar Lee - were a much bigger part of Detroit's team than Milosovic and Halvorsen were of ours. But, instead of criticizing McCallum for running off 4 players, everyone in the league is slobbering all over him because he signed his kid and a couple of high profile junior college transfers. Most HL fans are "slobbering" over what Detroit did in recruiting because they completely upgraded their roster. They lost 4 players, but the 8 new faces they will have on their roster next year should allow them to compete for the top spot in the HL next year. Can you say that about your roster? Is Jay Harris going to be an upgrade over McPherson? Is your new foreign post player going to be better than Milosovic and Halvorsen? Maybe. I don't know, but I doubt you see the improvement on your team that Detroit should see with the upgrades they made on their roster. Here are the players that Detroit is adding to their roster: 1) Ray McCallum Jr (6-2, PG) Detroit, MI. As a senior, he averaged 23 points, 7 rebounds, and 6 assists. 2) Jason Calliste (6-2, SG) Winston-Salem, NC. As a senior, he averaged 24 points and 11 assists. 3) Shayar Lee (6-4, SG) Phoenix, AZ. As a JUCO sophomore, he averaged 15 points and 5 rebounds. 4) Chris Blake (6-4, SG) Athens, TX. As a JUCO sophomore, he averaged 19 points and 6 rebounds. 5) Frank Williams (6-5, SF) Raytown, MO. As a senior, he averaged 18 points, 4 rebounds, and 2 assists. 6) Evan Bruinsma (6-7, SF) Muskegon, MI. As a senior, he averaged 21 points, 10 rebounds and 3 assists. 7) Nick Minnerath (6-8, PF) Truro, MA. As a JUCO sophomore, he averaged 21 points and 8 rebounds. 8) LaMarcus Lowe (6-11, C) Flint, MI. As a freshman at Western Michigan, he averaged 2 points, 3 rebounds, and 2 blocks. McCallum is a McDonald's All-American and 1 of 2 top 150 national players that Detroit added. Jason Calliste was a top 150 guy in 2009, but had to sit out this year until Detroit could get him through the NCAA clearinghouse. Chris Blake and Nick Minnerath are both JUCO All-Americans. LaMarcus Lowe is a defensive machine. He lead the MAC in blocked shots as a true freshman even though he only played limited minutes. The other 3 members of their class aren't as highly rated but I think almost any HL team would have been happy to add them to their roster. If McCallum is able to get that roster to gel, they are going to be one tough team next year. We'll compete for the title. Read my post above and you'll see my logic. As for the new guy performing better than Halvorsen ans Milosevic, are you kidding? Neither saw the floor for the last 17 games or so. Pretty hard to not have a better impact. And oh yeah, in my previous post I forgot to add one thing: We are adding a legit 7 footer who redshirted last year. Think he can help any? We'll see... |
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Post by wh on Jun 27, 2010 10:26:02 GMT -5
Unless you offered up the same criticism on the Detroit board (and I don't think you did), your argument rings pretty hollow. At the same time we had two players transfer, Detroit had four. And, those four – Curtis Eatmon, Jordan Fee, Xavier Keeling and Lamar Lee - were a much bigger part of Detroit's team than Milosovic and Halvorsen were of ours. But, instead of criticizing McCallum for running off 4 players, everyone in the league is slobbering all over him because he signed his kid and a couple of high profile junior college transfers. Most HL fans are "slobbering" over what Detroit did in recruiting because they completely upgraded their roster. They lost 4 players, but the 8 new faces they will have on their roster next year should allow them to compete for the top spot in the HL next year. Can you say that about your roster? Is Jay Harris going to be an upgrade over McPherson? Is your new foreign post player going to be better than Milosovic and Halvorsen? Maybe. I don't know, but I doubt you see the improvement on your team that Detroit should see with the upgrades they made on their roster. Here are the players that Detroit is adding to their roster: 1) Ray McCallum Jr (6-2, PG) Detroit, MI. As a senior, he averaged 23 points, 7 rebounds, and 6 assists. 2) Jason Calliste (6-2, SG) Winston-Salem, NC. As a senior, he averaged 24 points and 11 assists. 3) Shayar Lee (6-4, SG) Phoenix, AZ. As a JUCO sophomore, he averaged 15 points and 5 rebounds. 4) Chris Blake (6-4, SG) Athens, TX. As a JUCO sophomore, he averaged 19 points and 6 rebounds. 5) Frank Williams (6-5, SF) Raytown, MO. As a senior, he averaged 18 points, 4 rebounds, and 2 assists. 6) Evan Bruinsma (6-7, SF) Muskegon, MI. As a senior, he averaged 21 points, 10 rebounds and 3 assists. 7) Nick Minnerath (6-8, PF) Truro, MA. As a JUCO sophomore, he averaged 21 points and 8 rebounds. 8) LaMarcus Lowe (6-11, C) Flint, MI. As a freshman at Western Michigan, he averaged 2 points, 3 rebounds, and 2 blocks. McCallum is a McDonald's All-American and 1 of 2 top 150 national players that Detroit added. Jason Calliste was a top 150 guy in 2009, but had to sit out this year until Detroit could get him through the NCAA clearinghouse. Chris Blake and Nick Minnerath are both JUCO All-Americans. LaMarcus Lowe is a defensive machine. He lead the MAC in blocked shots as a true freshman even though he only played limited minutes. The other 3 members of their class aren't as highly rated but I think almost any HL team would have been happy to add them to their roster. If McCallum is able to get that roster to gel, they are going to be one tough team next year. So what's the message here? It's ok to have wholesale defections as long as the replacement players are WAY BETTER (Detroit)? It's not ok as long as the replacement players are just BETTER (Valpo)? You just proved my point. No one cares that a coach runs off a third of his team in one year as long as the players he replaces them with raise the profile of their team and help elevate the profile of the good old horizon basketball league. McCallum starts the recruiting season with 4 available scholarships and puts together an 8 player recruiting class? Completely ridiculous. And yet, blackpantheruwm chooses to come on our board and criticize Homer Drew about the number of defections we've had over over the past three years - even though the players we've brought in are better than the ones we lost. Totally misdirected and also completely ridiculous. |
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Post by dylanrocks on Jun 27, 2010 11:20:26 GMT -5
I'm a longtime Milwaukee fan and I don't think we should be talking after the last four years.
Constant turnover may be the preferred roster-building method for this millenium, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
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Post by bigdwsu on Jun 27, 2010 12:18:04 GMT -5
We'll compete for the title. Read my post above and you'll see my logic. As for the new guy performing better than Halvorsen ans Milosevic, are you kidding? Neither saw the floor for the last 17 games or so. Pretty hard to not have a better impact. I read your post above and I thought it was quite amusing. I love the "what IF" game. You stated that if Valpo improved it's defense to allow for 6 fewer points a game, you would have won 22 games last year and finished 2nd in the HL. Well, here is my what if....IF WSU had scored just 6 more points a game last year, we would have been 27-5 and would have gone Dancing instead of going 20-12 and sitting at home in March. The problem with that is your season was what it was and our season was what it was. "What ifs" are nice for message board discussions, but they aren't based on reality. I think Valpo has a nice team next year. I think you have a good chance at finishing in the top 4, but I don't think there is a HL basketball fan (who isn't a Valpo fan) that thinks you are going to compete for the title. The logical pick is Butler. After that most fans are looking at Detroit as their main competition. You also need to prove you are better than UWM and CSU. |
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Post by bigdwsu on Jun 27, 2010 12:29:10 GMT -5
And yet, blackpantheruwm chooses to come on our board and criticize Homer Drew about the number of defections we've had over over the past three years - even though the players we've brought in are better than the ones we lost. Totally misdirected and also completely ridiculous. Your first year in the HL you finished 19-13. Last year you finished 12-17. It appears the players you are loosing are affecting your teams performance if you want to admit it or not. You also want to argue that you are replacing inferior players with better ones. Your record doesn't back that up either. I don't think black panther or any one else cares if Valpo turns over players every year. UWGB has had a revolving door of players during little man k's career there, but no one cared because he put a successful team on the court that represented the HL well. That is all any of us want. |
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Post by vu72 on Jun 27, 2010 12:33:19 GMT -5
Your "what ifs" and my "what ifs" are both valid, because they assume only a slight improvement in overall play. I wasn't suggesting that "if" we became the best defensive team in the league, we could have won 22 games. I said, that the 6 point defensive improvement would have just put us in the middle of the pack.
Your six point improvement would have made you the top offensive team in the conference. That is a bit of a larger leap than my point don't you think?
I haven't studied what you have coming back or lost or what you have coming in. Can you provide a logical analysis of how you get the extra points? If so then fine, bring it on!
My analsis is far more reasonable given the fact that all of guys have now had a full year together (except McPherson) and some of the key parts were freshman. The difference in performance between a freshman and a sophomore is much greater than say, a junior and a senior, don't you think?
Last year we started, for many games, Johnson (new to the team),Wood (new to the team) Kurth (new to the team) and Little and Rogers. The key guys off the bench were new as well.
Can you say the same about WSU? I don't know, but doubt it.
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Post by blackpantheruwm on Jun 27, 2010 12:51:04 GMT -5
We'll compete for the title. Read my post above and you'll see my logic. As for the new guy performing better than Halvorsen ans Milosevic, are you kidding? Neither saw the floor for the last 17 games or so. Pretty hard to not have a better impact. And oh yeah, in my previous post I forgot to add one thing: We are adding a legit 7 footer who redshirted last year. Think he can help any? We'll see... We've read your logic running on three years now. The reason I didn't bring up the same stuff on the Detroit board is because, frankly, I can't stand the garbage they're spewing about forming an all-Catholic conference and prefer to stay away so I don't get mixed up in it. I like the Valpo fan base, that's why I thought I could be open and honest. I'm just bringing up the whole "what if" scenario that I'm sure has crossed the minds of die-hard Crusader fans. I mean, that's what fans do in the offseason, wonder what could have been if things had gone differently. As for our program, I wonder what our 20-14 team that gave away a few games (I believe you have intimate knowledge of one of them) would have done if our leading scorer from the previous year hadn't needed a medical redshirt. I wonder what Milwaukee would have done if we shot 5% better over the course of the season. |
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Post by dylanrocks on Jun 27, 2010 12:53:38 GMT -5
Poor man's coach k's treatment of Ryan Werch, a one-time Utah recruit, was abominable, pulling his scholarship when he had just one semester left before graduation.
As I see it, Valpo would have to leap three teams to compete for the title with Butler next season -- Detroit, Cleveland State and Milwaukee.
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