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Post by agibson on Sept 11, 2009 6:48:44 GMT -5
Not only are you correct, but the drop in enrollment that would come from being more selective would not last very long. Like you said, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. As Valpo becomes more selective it will begin getting more students, as a Valpo education becomes more exclusive and thus more desirable! For me there are two issues here. They are a bit connected, yet distinct. One is attracting highly desirable students - the quality of the student body. Another is the size of the student body. Higher education in the US is a huge system. There are successful schools at all levels. Some of those schools have lots of students, some have fewer. So, it's far from clear to me whether Valpo becoming more selective would increase enrollment, or decrease it. I suppose a short term decrease is likely. You might hope that people would like the new, more selective, product and that numbers might come back in the end. Selfishly, as Valpo alumni, we might be more interested in seeing today's Valpo be more selective. It's not obvious that will help enrollment. I do think that the quality of the Valpo faculty is high, and that they could support higher caliber students. So, I'm all for giving "more selective" a shot. But, it's not trivial to pull it off.
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Post by agibson on Sept 11, 2009 7:01:28 GMT -5
I don't think it will play out like that, but maybe the Administration ought to take a look at admitting fewer kids, giving more scholarship money to those with high scores, and be content with a smaller freshman class but one whose test scores are higher. In the long run that would probably help VU attract better students. Am I looking at this all wrong? Please advise, forum mates! For me, also, the average Valpo numbers are depressing. (That said, it's not really fair to compare to St. Olaf or Wheaton. Fundamentally different types of school.) One redeeming aspect is that I'm sure the numbers would look better in certain subsets of the university. Valpo does have a number of programs with excellent reputations that likely attract a more academically qualified applicant pool. Christ College, the honors college, is one of those. I suspect that the CC student body compares well with St. Olaf or Wheaton. Some would argue it's even comparable to the undergrads at a place like the University of Chicago. (Certainly a number of CC students, and probably some non-CC students, could have gone to places like Chicago.) The Meteorology department is likely another. Maybe the Engineering college is another. Perhaps the music department has some of this draw. Probably there are other areas as well.* And, Valpo does put $$ behind quality students (academically qualified, or in other areas). There's a significant amount of merit based aid available. They tune the formula from time to time, but last I remember merit-based full rides (or at least full tuition?) were on offer. So, one vision of advancing the Valpo brand would be to try to repeat (emulate?) the most successful programs. Again, this may be easier said than done. And, there's no silver bullet for building a successful, highly reputable, academic program.** *As another oddity, these programs also have fairly different demographics than the university at large. I don't have the numbers, but I'm pretty sure CC has a wider national reach than the university average. More states per hundred students, if you like. CC also seems to have a higher fraction of Lutheran students. Possibly also of practicing religious students. Those for whom Valpo's Lutheran heritage and practices might be a draw. The same story may be true for other Valpo programs that have a similar, enhanced, reputation. Basketball could be considered one of these programs, I suppose. **How all of this interacts with admissions is probably a bit complicated. A strong Met department might attract strong applicants, who are way beyond Valpo's minimum admissions standards and will be awarded merit based aid, etc. But, I don't think departments are in the habit of turning away students. (Well, Christ College does, but maybe not so many others?). So, in the same Met class you might have some very highly qualified students, and others who just met the Valpo minimum standard of admission. This mixture can have some positive aspects, but it may also have some negative ones.
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Post by vu72 on Sept 11, 2009 10:48:36 GMT -5
I'm very concerned with the focus only on a particular number. Do you drop a person with a 1225 on the SAT but take one with a 1230? Seems arbitrary at best.
If our faculty is as good as it has ever been, then how does our lack luster student body continue to graduate at such a high level? Why are our freshman retention rates so high if the students we are admitting are struggling to keep up?
If the students are graduating and staying in college (obviously this means making grades), then why would you not want these students? I do wonder about retention rates as compared to these other schools.. Maybe 56 can get them also.
As for very high quality students not wanting to come to Valpo because we apparently are accepting marginal others, I find this hard to believe. Valpo offers so much to these gifted students, through Christ College, and has professional programs unavailable at a place like St. Olaf. You can't even get an engineering degree from such a place. You would have to transfer for your last couple of years.
Valpo not only has a Phi Beta Kappa chapter (only about 10% of colleges have one), it also has similar chapters in all of its professional colleges. This is almost unique in all of Indiana. I think Purdue is the only other with all such chapters.
While I would agree that we could raise the bar somewhat, I'm very concerned about arbitrary goals and what that might mean to students with great backgrounds (student government, athletes, charitable work)with lesser scores, who might be excluded.
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Post by agibson on Sept 11, 2009 11:03:52 GMT -5
I don't think anyone's arguing that we should use the SAT to the exclusion of other methods.
We've not seen the full application packet for all of the Valpo students. But, we're assuming based on our personal histories at Valpo, and other factors, that not all Valpo students with weak SAT scores make up for it with outstanding contributions in other areas.
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Post by vu72 on Sept 11, 2009 13:17:41 GMT -5
Unfortunately, if you have a goal of raising admissions standards (i.e. test scores), then at some point you simply have to put limits on the scores. How else do you raise they numbers.
So one year a average student with an 1100 SAT and great outside activities makes the cut and the next, the same student doesn't make it. How can the number itself not be the factor?
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Post by fwalum on Sept 11, 2009 15:31:00 GMT -5
Unfortunately, if you have a goal of raising admissions standards (i.e. test scores), then at some point you simply have to put limits on the scores. How else do you raise they numbers. So one year a average student with an 1100 SAT and great outside activities makes the cut and the next, the same student doesn't make it. How can the number itself not be the factor? This is the exact quandary Wake Forest University has been fighting for years. They are the first top 30 school to make submitting test scores optional. Rethinking Admissions - Wake Forest Provost challenges standardized testing Here is WFU's admission data Percent of Applicants Admitted: 38% Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile Note that Wake Forest, like many other test-optional colleges, does not require standardized test scores for admissions
* SAT Critical Reading: 610 / 690 * SAT Math: 630 / 710 * SAT Writing: - / - * ACT Composite: 27 / 31 Many of you know that I am a little biased toward WFU (after VU of course) as the parent of a WFU honors graduate who is now getting her doctorate at George Washington University.
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Post by vu72 on Sept 11, 2009 16:33:37 GMT -5
I very much like the Wake Forest model fwalum.
I think it adds an air of mystery to the process and actually leads to an assumption of more selectivity than simply relying on a given score.
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Post by jj on Sept 11, 2009 18:42:02 GMT -5
Let's get realistic. In this economy you need bodies in order to keep the U. functioning. So, a student with a 950 SAT who can pay the full load would get preference over a student with an 1100 SAT who needs financial help.Book it!
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Post by valpomichigan on Sept 11, 2009 19:44:30 GMT -5
How did you manage to slip in, JJ ?
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Post by jj on Sept 12, 2009 7:10:35 GMT -5
A good GPA and the GI Bill (Korea).:cheers
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