Challenge To Mr. Roberts

[rick]

Roberts continued.......One recurring healing is for those people who have cysts, and it is claimed that they fall from the faces of those who have received their miracle. There seem to be many people who have cysts on their faces, but those people never appear on the television program with their doctors and the documentation to prove their disease and healing. Another unusual claim was that God was healing painful belly-buttons. Now to the person with a painful belly-button, it is no small matter. But are there medical procedures that are sufficient to handle those types of problems that do not require a miracle? The claim of belly-button healings is a symptom of the problem inherent in Richard Roberts' claims. He eventually trivializes what he claims to be a miracle. Instead of miracles being those events which have no explanation or cannot occur by any other means, they become the relief of lower back pain, claims of cysts falling from faces and healings of painful belly-buttons, none of which are verified. This is trivial nonsense presented as a deep, spiritual movement by the sovereign creator God of the universe. [glow=red,2,300]When the real healings are attempted, such as the child who is soon to die of cancer, the reality of what is claimed does become apparent, as the failure to heal for real is seen by the whole world. In that case, there is no invisibility, and failure is always the case. But to the faithful adherents, it makes no difference.[/glow]

[vcboys2000]

Ok Rick,

In almost everyone of your post the guy basically has the same argument, which he summed up at the end of the last post.

rick said:

When the real healings are attempted, such as the child who is soon to die of cancer, the reality of what is claimed does become apparent, as the failure to heal for real is seen by the whole world. In that case, there is no invisibility, and failure is always the case. But to the faithful adherents, it makes no difference.[/glow]

First of all my last post addressed the issue of PRob claiming to heal people out of his own power. It's just not true. The 'evidence' you quoted on our website is just misinterpretation.

Premise 1:
He does not claim to heal on his own power.

Now onto how he claims God uses him to heal others.

What's the big deal here? You said yourself that you believe God can use people to heal. Whether it's a cold or cancer doesn't reflect on the person. Remember "Premise 1". If God is the healer, then why is this guy upset with Richard if he only "sees"
colds or canes, which by the way isn't true. You took this guys arguments as truth that there are never 'substantial' healings just because he didn't see any. That's just like saying (if I was alive then) I don't believe Jesus can heal because I never saw him do it. It's doesn't matter if I saw it or not. It doesn't stop it from being true.

There have been people that have given several testimonies that they have been healed from cancer. Are they really healed? I don't know, Rick. That's between them, God, and their doctor. But yet you feel ok to accuse him of being a phony based what someone else hasn't seen him do.

[vcboys2000]

My post about your challenge was simple. If Premise 1 is correct and God is the healer, then why would it matter who comes up to Valpo to pray for your son? It's not like Richard guarantees people God will heal them when he prays for them. He just prays.

[rick]

Benny Hinn:
"Of course it bothers me," says Hinn of the criticism that often focuses on his lifestyle. He lives with his wife and three children in a multimillion-dollar oceanfront mansion near the Ritz-Carlton hotel in Dana Point. "I know me, and those close to me know me. But sadly, the outside world thinks I'm some kind of a crook. I think it's time for me to change that."

""It's not been a pleasant life," Hinn says. "[People] think we're in it for the money.[Duh!] They think that God doesn't really heal, so these guys are just fooling the world. I'd be a fool to be in this for the money.[Fool!] If I did not believe God healed, I'd quit tomorrow and go get a job." [What a crack-up. LOL!]


ROTFLMAO

Wonder if Richard Roberts would take a vow of poverty for the Lord. Don't hold your breath!

[rick]

Oral Roberts Goes Legitimate
By William H. Willimon

"I didn't like him when he used to parade around on TV and do all that healing routine. But he has changed. He is a Methodist now and I think he is one of the greatest religious leaders in our nation."

That's what a woman said to me the other day. I have a hunch that her opinion of Oral Roberts is representative of millions of Americans, people who wouldn't have given the flamboyant faithhealer the time of day ten years ago but who now faithfully tune into his television extravaganzas and read his fifty books.

A couple of years ago, Brother Roberts attracted the largest crowds Emory University's "Minister's Week" ever had. Thousands packed the United Methodist Layman's Conference at Lake Junaluska, North Carolina, in 1974 to hear Roberts. Last January, at a much publicized United Methodist Congress on Evangelism in Philadelphia, Roberts was honored, along with Billy Graham, as "Evangelists of the Year." "Plant a seed if you have a need," Roberts told a capacity crowd at the conference.

I

Since he joined the United Methodist Church in 1968 ("to open a wider door for my ministry"), Roberts' fame and finances have skyrocketed. A change has come in the style and image of the onetime tent faithhealer. He is now a friend of high government officials; he serves on the Board of Directors of a large Tulsa bank, and he is an acknowledged leader among evangelicals as well as among members of his new denomination.

But has Roberts changed? If he has changed, how has he changed? You can see some of the more self-evident changes that have occurred by thumbing through the back issues of his magazine, Abundant Life. The pictures of a sweating preacher in shirtsleeves were replaced in the early fifties by a sportcoat and tie. By the late sixties, Roberts usually appears in an expensive three-piece conservative suit. And his blatant appeals for money have also been subdued.

His three successive autobiographies, Oral Roberts' Life Story as Told by Himself (1947), My Twenty Years of Miracle Ministry (1967), and The Call (1972), show a gradual refinement in his theology and a revision of his life story. Roberts appears to remember his past
differently each time he writes about it. Some of the more extravagant healing incidents are deleted or modified. There is less emphasis on physical healing and more on healing of a psychological nature (depression, frustration, loneliness). There is also a more sophisticated effort to counter his detractors.

This gradual revision of his image undoubtedly accounts for many of Oral Roberts' new admirers. His new, slick TV spectaculars and weekly sermons backed by the easy, romantic Jesus love-songs of his World Action Singers, are also clues to his broad appeal. Being a president and founder of a 100 million dollar university, founder of a large retirement village, and author of many best-selling books has helped his image too. Little wonder that many of Roberts' long time Pentecostal friends have accused him of "selling out" to money and the establishment.

Admittedly, people can grow and certainly Oral Roberts has grown over the past few years. But has he changed? Has his theology grown or has it only become more subtle in its appeal to the same basic human weaknesses that it once appealed to?

II

Roberts' theology is best exemplified in his basic concept of "Seed Faith" with its three key principles for "Abundant Living": (1) God is your source, (2) Give that it may be given to you, (3) Expect a miracle. The Miracle of Seed Faith (1970) has sold well over a million copies. The concept is said to be based on Luke 6:38 (". . . give and you shall receive"), Philippians 4:19 ("My God shall supply all your needs . . ."), and Galatians 6:7 ("Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"). A key step to "Abundant Living" is the "Blessing Pact" whereby one pledges to give money (preferably to Roberts' ministries) with the expectation of monetary as well as spiritual blessings in return. "If you want God to supply your financial needs, then give SEED-MONEY for HIM to reproduce and multiply" (p. 21).

The book on Seed Faith contains about forty testimonies of the efficacy of the concept. Over half of these testimonies deal with financial gain through the use of the Plan. The story of a "black man in Harlem" is typical. He testifies that he started his "Blessing Pact" by sending in five dollars to Tulsa. But he was dismayed when nothing happened. Then, after three months of using the Plan, a stranger appeared and gave him $700. A second stranger came a week later and gave him $1,000. "Today is a new day for me. Today, I live in my own home in Harlem; it cost $27,000 and it's all paid for."

"Being a Christian is the best deal a man ever had," says Roberts, who claims that we should "stress the law of return more than we stress our debt to God." He differentiates the Seed-Faith concept from the traditional Christian idea of tithing: "In tithing, you give after you have made the income. In Seed-giving, you give before in expectation of return" (p. 27).
While Roberts claims that his theology is more than mere "power of positive thinking" and more than a crude way of raising money, it does garner millions each year for his diverse "ministries." As Billy Graham said to Oral Roberts (who by this time had become Dr. Roberts), when he helped dedicate the 100 million dollar Oral Roberts University in 1967, "I have been out-financed."

It is not my purpose here to raise questions about Roberts' controversial past, the possible motivations for the changes that have occurred in his style over the years, or the workings of his far flung empire. I wish only to question the content of his present theology, embraced by United Methodist bishops, endorsed at evangelical convocations, and received by millions each week through television.

III

Roberts is still promising spectacular, quick cures for our illnesses, even though the illnesses are now more often financial or emotional than physical. In his Miracles of Christ (1975), he tells us that God gives miracles to those who expect miracles. One must sow a "seed" of expectation in order to receive a miracle. Miracles are not limited. We should expect miracles from God to cure everything from our bank balance to our toothaches (p. 46). He makes a great deal of Luke 5: 1-1 1, the miracle of the catch of fish, to prove that Christ does care about the success of our business ventures (pp. 60-76). There is not the slightest hint that firm expectation of miracles will not bring about the desired miraculous result. Failure or even a negative response from God does not seem to be possible for Roberts if one carefully adheres to the Seed-Faith technique. "When I really turn to Jesus Christ as a Person and apply the principles of the Blessing-Pact, God has never failed to answer in time. It always works" (Seed Faith, p. 118). "I've noticed that people who don't believe in miracles start believing in them when they need one," he commented recently to the Methodist evangelism convocation.

This utilitarian, mechanistic approach to the workings of the divine carries over into Roberts' thoughts on prayer. Prayer, for users of the Seed-Faith technique, is a way to bolster our confidence that God is going to do what we want done and a way to let God know what we think we need. "Friend, when you are dealing with God, it is always your attitude that He considers" (Seed Faith, p. 131). Each week Roberts ascends his Prayer Tower in Tulsa to pray for everything from requests for peoples' stock market transactions to cures for various illnesses.

Roberts' version of Christianity, curiously, involves an extremely circumscribed use of Scripture. In all of his books, he returns to the same basic proof texts. God is all good. God wants only our health and happiness, our financial and spiritual success, and the meeting of all our needs. Suffering or failure appear to be only conditions of those who have not entered the Seed-Faith Plan and expected a miracle. The
cross, the mysteries of pain and suffering, the evidences of social injustice, our responsibility for the needs of others, and our implication in the pain of the world are not mentioned. Here is a peculiarly American, pragmatic form of Christianity. These weaknesses in Roberts' theology raise questions about his fitness to lead United Methodists, evangelicals, or any other group which tries to be true to the full witness of historic Christianity.

A few Sunday mornings ago, while I dressed for church, I watched Patty Roberts, Oral's daughter-in-law, tell American women that they could all be as beautiful, attractive, and happy as she is "if they just believe God wants us to be happy and expect a miracle." I thought of all the millions of tired, bored, trapped, unfulfilled, unattractive women across the country who heard Patty's testimony. No doubt there are within the mass of suffering humanity many who have had a glimpse of the gospel or renewed hope through the Roberts' message and ministry. But there are many in that audience for whom the glamor and happiness of Patty Roberts will remain only a distant dream, a fond hope which may or may not be related to the highest of Christian hopes.

The once poor preacher's boy from rural Oklahoma came up the hard way. His theology, by Roberts' own account, reflects the steps along his upward path to fame and fortune. His humble origins and his undeniable ability for simple, warm, personable persuasion, his skill in touching places where we hurt the most undoubtedly account for much of his popularity.

But Roberts' success and growing legitimacy have deeper roots. He has succeeded in plugging into basic human fantasies, which tell us that we can follow God without the risk of suffering or failure, and our basic human weakness, which makes us follow any handsome deliverer who promises us a quick, three-easy-step journey out of our wilderness into a promised land of personal bliss.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

William H. Willimon has been serving as the minister of the Trinity United Methodist Church, North Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Beginning with the present academic year, he will be Assistant Professor of Worship and Liturgy at the Divinity School of Duke University.

[vcboys2000]

rick said:

Wonder if Richard Roberts would take a vow of poverty for the Lord. Don't hold your breath!

It's so funny because the people that say these things that you are quoting have visions of Oral and Richard living the high life. Riding around in Bentley's and living in Mansions. It's actually quite opposite. When Oral was president of the university, he and his wife lived on campus in a house behind some of the dormitories. The house was no bigger that a normal 2 story house in a suburb of Indianapolis. He was doing this as the president of the university. Why isn't this shouted from the roof tops from some of these people that claim their cause is so noble.

I'm done, Rick. This is pointless.

[rick]

Gee, no takers? What a surprise!! I do declare!!