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Post by vu72 on Jun 15, 2009 11:00:52 GMT -5
Our ACT range (22-28) needs to improve a bit. I think it used to be 23-29, although I'm not sure. The top schools in our category (Butler, Creighton, Xavier, Drake) are a notch higher. I'm disappointed the Lutheran percentage is only 26%. This is very surprising to me. Paul The range 22-26 for ACT scores is the MID-50%. Thus, 25% are lower than this range and 25% higher. I know of one student, for example, who scored 34 on test. Valpo has always sought to have a broad based student body. Test scores alone do not necessarily indicate the success of any given student.
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Post by vuweathernerd on Jun 15, 2009 12:26:43 GMT -5
president heckler has said during each focus session that they don't just look at the academics (which i'm sure we realize). he has said that they have also started taking into account the potential for leadership and success post-graduation, which is something i don't remember hearing from president harre three years ago at focus. it might be that heckler's just vocalizing the process, but on the other hand, it could be that the admissions office has altered their approach in evaluating incoming students.
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Post by 78crusader on Jun 15, 2009 12:32:53 GMT -5
It appears our admission standards have been lowered. I'm not faulting VU for this, I realize all schools are under tremendous pressure to fill the dorms. But it is a slippery slope we're on. The more we lower the admission standards, the fewer kids with 30+ ACT scores will apply here, with the result that the 22-28 ACT range goes down even further. But Butler, Xavier, Creighton, Drake, Wheaton, all are under similar pressures. And all have higher ACT scores than we do. What are they doing that we are not doing? Paul
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Post by vu72 on Jun 15, 2009 12:59:39 GMT -5
Paul,
I'm not sure if you don't get it or if your post is just a little incomplete. The 22-28 range is the middle 50%!! This means close to 200 freshman have scores higher than 26. My recollection is that this range has not changed over the recent past. I am part of the VAN and see these things prior to every college fair I do.
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Post by 78crusader on Jun 15, 2009 13:10:02 GMT -5
VU72, I understand your point -- it's a good one -- but the flip side is that 25% of VU students are walking around with ACTs of under 22. That isn't all that much to write home about. I think we should be trying to increase the standards, not lower them. The range for Wheaton is (going on memory here) 25-30. Why can't we be in that range? Paul
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Post by vu72 on Jun 15, 2009 14:15:29 GMT -5
I for one wasn't the greatest test taker. Still, somehow, I've managed to do ok for myself. Although I don't think seeking higher quality students is a bad thing (Valpo goes hard after certain high acheivers) it also shouldn't be an artificial barrier to entry.
Clearly some students are not there yet from a maturity standpoint coming out of high school. I for one didn't get into great grades until half way through my junior year. If my average GPA was the guiding factor I might have ended up at Ohio State! Things change and eliminating those students also denies them the Valpo experience we all cherish.
Not sure Wheaton is a good school for comparison. Valpo now has many muslim students. Would they be welcome, or feel welcome, at Wheaton? Not sure.
Lutheranism provides one with the ability to question and debate. In fact it is encouraged. This open welcoming style makes many who aren't Lutheran also feel welcome.
Not sure what school would be a good comparioson to Valpo. Both Wheaton and say, St. Olaf, are liberal arts schools while Valpo now has about 1/3 of its students in the professional schools versus liberal arts.
Having said all this doesn't mean for a second that Valpo shouldn't seek to better its reputation and resulting graduates in any way possible. Just not sure arbitrary test results is the best way to achieve these goals.
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Post by 78crusader on Jun 15, 2009 14:37:13 GMT -5
Got to be careful here, I don't want to offend anyone... ...but the fact there are many Muslim students now at VU is something I disapprove of. We are not just a faith-based university, we are supposedly a Christian faith-based university. There's a big difference there, don't you think? What is next? Do these Muslim students get to worship their God in the Chapel? I intend this to be a serious question. There was a service at the Chapel earlier this year in which people from all different faiths attended. Was there prayer? If so, did the Muslims pray to their God in our Chapel? Is that something Jesus would approve of -- people worshipping and praying to a false God in the house of the Lord? This has been something on my mind for a long time. I don't care if Muslims care to attend college. What I care about is when VU, a Christian university, actively seeks these students to come here. Why? Is it just to raise more tuition dollars? So "traditional" students get to go home and tell their mom and dad they know a Muslim student? We are supposed to have a goal of Christian education, service, and commitment. Recruiting kids who are not Christ followers does not further that goal, at least in my view. We are giving up the best Christian kids to places like Wheaton and Calvin and Taylor. If you disagree, then go online and check out the academic profiles of the freshmen classes of these places and you will see they are equal to, or perhaps better than, VU's. I know for sure Wheaton's freshman class average ACT score is much better than VU's. Paul
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Post by vu72 on Jun 15, 2009 14:59:30 GMT -5
I understand and appreciate your viewpoint. Things have changed since you and I were in school. Rember however that Missouri Lutherans don't think it's OK to worship with ELCA members. President Harre and Dean Cunningham were brought up on charges for praying with non-LCMS members. Just how limited should our approach be?
When you say that Muslims pray to a false god, I disagree. Their God is our God going back to Abraham. Where obviously we differ is in the saving nature of Christ who they view as only a prophet.
I guess I don't have a problem broadening our appeal and believe that the Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways. If we are afraid to witness or defend our faith in the face of non'believers then we have another problem.
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Post by stlvufan on Jun 15, 2009 15:46:10 GMT -5
No offense taken, just some questions: ...but the fact there are many Muslim students now at VU is something I disapprove of. We are not just a faith-based university, we are supposedly a Christian faith-based university. There's a big difference there, don't you think? I believe 1 Peter 3:15 stands in contrast to the picture you are painting here, at least in my mind. Contradiction would be too strong a word for me to use, but contrast seems appropriate. What you are afraid of, I assume, is that the meaning of the Christian gospel will get watered down in order to cater to non-Christians, and this is certainly a plausible concern these days. Unfortunately, keeping them out has the same effect. Even begrudgingly letting them in has that same effect, for the very Christian gospel you are concerned for is universal in its outreach and one of its symbols is the "open book" -- i.e., there's no room for clique-ishness or the message of the gospel disintegrates. Does it present challenges? Certainly. Are you speaking of the order of worship prepared for such a service, or are you speaking of what is going on in the hearts of each person sitting in the pews? The former is indeed a challenge worthy of discussion, and it can be done badly. As for the latter, you can keep the muslims out and I guarantee you all the pristine-looking Christians remaining in the pews will still be praying to "their own gods" during the service -- because we are all sinful to the core. Not sure there's anything you can do to prevent that. Avoiding them absolutely does *not* further that goal. Recruiting them *can* if it is done right.
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Post by 78crusader on Jun 15, 2009 16:39:49 GMT -5
There was an article last year in the Wall Street Journal regarding Wheaton College (where my daughters attend) and its decision to terminate the contract of a professor who had just divorced. (All professors, and students, agree to a statement of faith and conduct before they are hired or admitted.) Here is what the WSJ had to say: "Now, whenever a institution or community applies its standards, it will likely be the heavy in the public eye...And when the institution in question is an evangelical college, the champions of diversity go silent, and ridicule and caricature become the rule... ...Wheaton's ways are not my ways. Yet there is something refreshing about an institution willing to stand up for its convictions rather than trim its sails to the prevailing winds." What I am trying to convey here is the thought that American higher education has a history of secularization, one that is threatening all schools like VU which have a tradition and foundation in the Christian faith. Recruiting Muslims and students of other, non-Christian faiths is one step toward the kind of all-inclusive, one-size-fits-all approach that will one day make VU indistinguishable from, say, Grand Valley State. As my mom says, if you try to please everyone, you wind up pleasing no one. There are several institutions in the midwest that maintain their strong Christian heritage and admit only Christian students. Taylor, Wheaton, Calvin. All of these schools are thriving. We have to ask -- why? Paul
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Post by vu72 on Jun 15, 2009 17:05:47 GMT -5
"Taylor, Wheaton, Calvin. All of these schools are thriving. We have to ask -- why?" --quote Paul Not sure what "thriving means. I can only go on published information and I chose US News. The last report on rankings says that Calvin, with 4169 students, has an endowment of 91 million and an acceptance rate of 95.3%!! So much for selectivity. Taylor, has an undergaduate enrollment of 1879, has an endowment of 58 million and has an acceptance rate of 91.1% Valpo, in the same report, had 2915 undergrads, an endowment of 193 million and an acceptance rate of 90.2% Couldn't find out much about Wheaton. Their website says they have an endowment of 312 million. Not worth a big discussion, just saying "thriving" vs. Valpo may be alittle strong!
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Post by 78crusader on Jun 15, 2009 17:12:20 GMT -5
VU72, Endowment numbers don't tell the whole story. The average ACT for entering freshmen is as good or better than VU's at all three schools. VU is 26, same as Calvin and Taylor. Wheaton is at 29. Someone on this board, who is affiliated with VU Admissions, has mentioned that VU is getting regularly beat by Calvin in recruiting Lutheran kids out of Ft. Wayne. If true, then that is scary -- if VU can't get Lutheran kids of out Ft. Wayne, they can't get them out of anywhere. I didn't know Calvin had 4169 students. And we only have 2900-plus? I don't like that trend either. Paul
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Post by stlvufan on Jun 15, 2009 17:23:52 GMT -5
There was an article last year in the Wall Street Journal regarding Wheaton College (where my daughters attend) and its decision to terminate the contract of a professor who had just divorced. (All professors, and students, agree to a statement of faith and conduct before they are hired or admitted.) Here is what the WSJ had to say: "Now, whenever a institution or community applies its standards, it will likely be the heavy in the public eye...And when the institution in question is an evangelical college, the champions of diversity go silent, and ridicule and caricature become the rule... ...Wheaton's ways are not my ways. Yet there is something refreshing about an institution willing to stand up for its convictions rather than trim its sails to the prevailing winds." What I am trying to convey here is the thought that American higher education has a history of secularization, one that is threatening all schools like VU which have a tradition and foundation in the Christian faith. Recruiting Muslims and students of other, non-Christian faiths is one step toward the kind of all-inclusive, one-size-fits-all approach that will one day make VU indistinguishable from, say, Grand Valley State. As my mom says, if you try to please everyone, you wind up pleasing no one. There are several institutions in the midwest that maintain their strong Christian heritage and admit only Christian students. Taylor, Wheaton, Calvin. All of these schools are thriving. We have to ask -- why? Paul If I were a grad of such an institution (Oral Roberts comes to mind), I'm not at all sure I'd be proud of such "thriving". There's no law against operating that way, to be sure, but choosing to *not* operate that way is *only* a slippery slope if you *let* it be one. Thriving at the expense of the meaning of the very message you are trying to promote seems like borderline idolatry to me. :twocents
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Post by okinawatyphoon on Jun 15, 2009 18:20:04 GMT -5
VU72, I didn't know Calvin had 4169 students. And we only have 2900-plus? I don't like that trend either. Paul 2900 students refers to only undergraduate students. Add in the graduate and law programs and we are just under 4000....approximately 3980.
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Post by valpo04 on Jun 15, 2009 18:44:12 GMT -5
What I am trying to convey here is the thought that American higher education has a history of secularization, one that is threatening all schools like VU which have a tradition and foundation in the Christian faith. Recruiting Muslims and students of other, non-Christian faiths is one step toward the kind of all-inclusive, one-size-fits-all approach that will one day make VU indistinguishable from, say, Grand Valley State. As my mom says, if you try to please everyone, you wind up pleasing no one. Or say, Harvard or Yale or gasp... Princeton! There are plenty of "all-inclusive" schools that were founded and once affiliated with some religion or another. They are all doing just fine academically, continue to provide a fantastic education and are QUITE distinguishable.
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