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Post by valpo84 on Jan 2, 2011 10:08:58 GMT -5
So, let's see ND beats an overrated G-Town and gets beat by Syracuse in a first true road game, so that makes them a top 10 team. The fallacy in the argument of the Big Least is that by a bunch of teams scheduling cupcakes and Christmas goodies in November and December that makes the conference the best. Then when they proceed in to conference season and the beat each other (at home), then suddenly it shows how the rankings were right. Don't get me wrong, it's a formula for improving rankings of their teams, maximizing TV ratings and then getting as many teams in to the dance (to lose in the first round or second in so-called "upsets") as they can. Marquette beat WVa yesterday (at home), is that win better than their win over Xavier at Xavier a couple days before? I would argue no. The X win will be better for them in March. WVa is showing they may be only an NIT team. Because the conference is very competitive does not make it the best. The WVa-Marquette game was painful to watch at times (similar to our first 9 minutes yesterday). To answer who's the best conference, I generally wait to see how they do in the tourney, not how many teams get in (that will be especially true this year with the additions of a couple more BCS schools). I know which conferences this year are not the best -- ACC has only one really good-great team, but which may win the national title again. SEC is "terrbl" after Kentucky, Florida (which I'm not real sold on) and Vandy. PAC-whatever has a couple of good teams, but is in a rebuilding year. Big 12 may have the best teams at the top, but still carry a bunch of duds along (see Iowa State, Texas A&M, Texas Tech and Nebraska), but Kansas, Baylor and Texas are solid clubs. Big 10/11/12 ("B1G") have Michigan State, Wisconsin, Purdue and OSU at the higher level. Mich State will be better in March from where they are now as Izzo does his magic. What I have seen overall this year are few great clubs in all phases. Frankly, Butler's performance yesterday and over the last couple weeks is one of the better "teams" this year. They are balanced, play in your shorts D, and do the fundamentals. Yet, they are not even ranked. That team could run the table again in conference play and be well prepared to knock off the Big Least, Big 12 and B1G teams (especially the middle of the pack ones that make the tourney) in March. So, if ND is top-10, I don't know what that means. It's nice but Kenpom has them at 27 even with the win, which is a bit more indicative of their performace to date. Unfortunately, they have UConn next and Marquette on the road in their next three games, and in typical ND fashion could be playing themselves right to the bubble in the next week or so.
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Post by dcvalpo on Jan 2, 2011 20:06:57 GMT -5
(I know you said you would wait until the tournament, but why not go out on a limb and prognosticate? I can tell you who the best team in the NFL is too, just let me get back to you in a month)
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Post by dcvalpo on Jan 2, 2011 20:12:38 GMT -5
Since you cited Kenpom, thought I would check out where things stand at the moment...considering that the Big East has 8 teams in the top 30, nearly twice as many as any other league, I would say they are pretty darn good. Unless you think Kenpom's rankings aren't very accurate, in which case you couldn't use them to prop up your Notre Dame argument. But since you cited KP, I assume you think it's a decent source...and the MU win over 28 WVa certainly seems a bit more impressive than the win over 77 XU. We will see how it all shakes out...
BTW, wasn't someone bashing Cincy in this thread? 14-0 at this point, regardless of SOS, is pretty impressive
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Post by dcvalpo on Jan 2, 2011 20:18:46 GMT -5
The fallacy in the argument of the Big Least is that by a bunch of teams scheduling cupcakes and Christmas goodies in November and December that makes the conference the best. A sampling of BE non-conference opponents: Syracuse- Michigan, Ga Tech, Michigan State, NC State UConn- Michigan State, Kentucky Pitt- Maryland, Texas Marquette- Duke, Gonzaga, Wisconsin, Vandy Villanova- UCLA, Tennessee, Temple, Maryland Georgetown- NC State, Mizzou, Memphis Notre Dame- Georgia, Cal, Gonzaga, Wisconsin I could keep going, but the point is made...this nonsense that the BE fattens up on "cupcakes and Christmas goodies" is just wrong. They play plenty of strong non-conference opponents and they have done extremely well in those games.
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Post by staxawax on Jan 2, 2011 21:06:06 GMT -5
Since you cited Kenpom, thought I would check out where things stand at the moment... considering that the Big East has 8 teams in the top 30, nearly twice as many as any other league, I would say they are pretty darn good. Unless you think Kenpom's rankings aren't very accurate, in which case you couldn't use them to prop up your Notre Dame argument. But since you cited KP, I assume you think it's a decent source...and the MU win over 28 WVa certainly seems a bit more impressive than the win over 77 XU. We will see how it all shakes out... BTW, wasn't someone bashing Cincy in this thread? 14-0 at this point, regardless of SOS, is pretty impressive Just a thought, but doesn't the Big East HAVE about twice as many member schools as most other conferences?
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Post by bbtds on Jan 2, 2011 23:59:28 GMT -5
BTW, wasn't someone bashing Cincy in this thread? 14-0 at this point, regardless of SOS, is pretty impressive The Cincy Bearcats have played Mount St. Mary's IPFW Florida A&M Savannah State Dayton Wright State Toledo Utah Valley GA Southern Oklahoma Miami (Ohio) St. Francis (PA) DePaul Seton Hall Which team did they beat that was an upset?
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Post by valporun on Jan 3, 2011 0:46:13 GMT -5
The Big East commonly gets 3-4 top major teams because they are in ESPN or holiday tournaments that put them up against these teams, so they don't really choose who they get to play, they just sign up for the tv exposure and guarantees of prime time games during Maui, Hawaii, Las Vegas, Coaches vs. Cancer, Preseason NIT, and those big tourneys that we see all the games on tv for somehow, it's when they have to find 8 or 9 other games to play when they schedule the cupcakes and pushovers. Case in point, Cincinnati played top major teams about even with them, but loaded up on the Savannah Sts., Daytons, Mount St. Mary's, and various other mid-/low- majors, hence how they end up 14-0, then they hope and pray for getting the South Floridas, St. John's, Rutgers, DePauls to raise hell on, so they get into the conference tourney, and the NIT.
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Post by bbtds on Jan 3, 2011 0:52:47 GMT -5
The fallacy in the argument of the Big Least is that by a bunch of teams scheduling cupcakes and Christmas goodies in November and December that makes the conference the best. A sampling of BE non-conference opponents: Syracuse- Michigan, Ga Tech, Michigan State, NC State UConn- Michigan State, Kentucky Pitt- Maryland, Texas Marquette- Duke, Gonzaga, Wisconsin, Vandy Villanova- UCLA, Tennessee, Temple, Maryland Georgetown- NC State, Mizzou, Memphis Notre Dame- Georgia, Cal, Gonzaga, Wisconsin I could keep going, but the point is made...this nonsense that the BE fattens up on "cupcakes and Christmas goodies" is just wrong. They play plenty of strong non-conference opponents and they have done extremely well in those games. Let's see all the Big East competition not just selected ones: UConn-Wichita State, Michigan State, Kentucky, New Hampshire, MD-Baltimore, Fairleigh Dickinson, Coppin State, Harvard DePaul-Chicago State, Western Carolina, Oklahoma State, Cal State Northridge, Stanford, Northern Illinois, Central Michigan, Indiana State, Ball State, Milwaukee, Loyola, Florida Atlantic Georgetown-Old Dominion, Tulane, Coastal Carolina, Wofford, North Carolina State, UNC Asheville, Missouri, Utah State, Temple, Appalachian State, Loyola-MD, Memphis Louisville-Butler, Jackson State, Chattanooga, Marshall, Florida International, South Alabama, San Francisco, UNLV, Drexel, Gardner-Webb, Western Kentucky, Morgan State, Kentucky Marquette-Prairie View A&M, Bucknell, Green Bay, South Dakota, Duke, Gonzaga, Milwaukee, Longwood, Texas A&M Corpus Christi, Wisconsin, Centenary, Mississippi Valley State, Vanderbilt Notre Dame-GA Southern, Liberty, Chicago State, Maine, Georgia, California, Wisconsin, Indiana State, Kentucky, Gonzaga, Stony Brook, MD-Baltimore Pittsburgh-Rhode Island, UIC, North Florida, Maryland, Texas, Robert Morris, Penn, Duquesne, Rider, Delaware State, Tennessee, MD-Eastern Shore, American Providence-Dartmouth, Yale, Morgan State, Prairie View A&M, La Salle, Wyoming, Central Conn, Northeastern, Rhode Island, Brown, Boston College, Alabama, Sacred Heart Rutgers-Princeton, Fairfield, Miami, Norfolk State, St. Joseph's, New Jersey Institute of Technology, Marist, Auburn, Fairleigh Dickinson, Monmouth, St. Peter's, North Carolina, Villanova Seton Hall-Temple, Cornell, Alabama, Xavier, Clemson, St. Peter's, Arkansas, UMass, Longwood, New Jersey Institute of Technology, Dayton, Richmond St. John's-St. Mary's (CA), Columbia, Ball State, Drake, Arizona State, Wagner, St. Bonaventure, Fordham, Davidson, Northwestern Syracuse-Northern Iowa, Canisius, Detroit, William & Mary, Michigan, GA Tech, Cornell, North Carolina State, Michigan State, Colgate, Iona, Morgan State, Drexel South Florida-Southern Mississippi, St. Francis (NY), Central Florida, GA Southern, Liberty, Brigham Young, Texas Tech, VA Commonwealth, Florida Atlantic, Kent State, Auburn, James Madison, Cleveland State Villanova-Bucknell, Marist, Boston University, Lafayette, UCLA, Tennessee, St. Joseph's, Penn, La Salle, Delaware, Monmouth, Temple West Virginia-Oakland, Davidson, Vanderbilt, Minnesota, VA Military Institute, American, Miami, Robert Morris, Duquesne, Cleveland State I think I see as many cupcakes and Christmas goodies on these schedules as I do tough competition. I'll let the posters decide.
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Post by agibson on Jan 3, 2011 5:23:34 GMT -5
Quotes from dcvalpo.
I don't deny that the Big East looks good this year, and has a lot of very good teams. But, since we've taken to quoting Pomeroy in this thread, he currently has the Big Ten and Big 12 ahead of them (but all three quite close.)
Maybe. But it's impressive like a long free throw shooting streak. Their schedule has been _really_ weak. Pomeroy thinks it's one of the weakest in the nation. I think we'll have to get deeper into conference play to see what they're really made of. And, I think that Cleveland State's 15-1 is just as impressive. (We'll have to get further into conference season - though perhaps not much further - to see what they're really made of too.)
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Post by valpo84 on Jan 3, 2011 9:29:06 GMT -5
The fallacy in the argument of the Big Least is that by a bunch of teams scheduling cupcakes and Christmas goodies in November and December that makes the conference the best. A sampling of BE non-conference opponents: Syracuse- Michigan, Ga Tech, Michigan State, NC State 4-0 (although Mich, GaTech and NCSt are good wins, but programs not playing at high levels, even Boeheim can outcoach Hewitt). They are legitimate in their ranking. UConn- Michigan State, Kentucky 2-0.They may be good. Body of work is incomplete because of the softness of their preconf schedule and their 1-1 with an OT win against SFla conf. Pitt- Maryland, Texas 2-0 Pitt is among the top 4 teams in BigLeast. Wins are solid OOC and UConn win helps say they are legitimate. Rest of schedule was super soft. Marquette- Duke, Gonzaga, Wisconsin, Vandy 0-4 and a close one against UWM. Pretty mediocre. The WVa win was good but in conference. Villanova- UCLA, Tennessee, Temple, Maryland 2-1 with MD to come. Temple win was at home by 4. UCLA having a down year. lLoss to an erratic Tenn club. Incomplete-to overrated Georgetown- NC State, Mizzou, Memphis, Temple 3-1 Conveniently left off Temple game. But GTown probably top-4 in BigLeast but you see the weaknesses. Lost to Temple on road and almost lost to ODU on road (solid win for GTown as ODU is a very good club). Utah State win at home helps RPI and gives GTown the best OOC schedule. NC State win is only OK Notre Dame- Georgia, Cal, Gonzaga, Wisconsin, Kentucky 4 -1 Admit this is a good OOC schedule and wins, but GA (2OTs), CAL are down. Gonz was a 4-pt game at home. ND is still an incomplete but those OOC wins will help at tourney time if they are over .500 in conference. I also said based on body of work to date KenPom's 27 was about right. The other team that should have been on here is The Ville. They bea Butler and UNLV at home but have lost to Drexel and UK. WVa scheduled well but has losses to Minn and Miami FL with wins against Clev St (at home) and Vandy. I could keep going, but the point is made...this nonsense that the BE fattens up on "cupcakes and Christmas goodies" is just wrong. They play plenty of strong non-conference opponents and they have done extremely well in those games. My point was that BigLeast is overrated consistently because of scheduling and East Coast media and TV bias. The top 4-5 teams OOC schedules have some nice wins on them to start the year, but do not by itself prove they are the best conference. The fact of 16 teams is not relevant as the bottom 8 teams are middle to lower part of the other main BCS conferences. Penn State could be just as easily replaced for Seton Hall or Providence. The best conference this year overall is probably between Big 12, B1G and BigLeast, if you want a prediction. I think in the end but for Hummel's injury, the B1G would be the early favorite for best conference because I think the depth of teams is better this year and there could be 2 Final Four teams come out of their best teams. I don't believe that is the case for the BigLeast. Syracuse appears poised for Final Four with Kansas as another contender. But, I think this is another year where a mid-major could end up in that mix.
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Post by dcvalpo on Jan 3, 2011 10:14:38 GMT -5
#1 Ohio State also plays the 180th best schedule...what teams are playing tougher schedules overall than the Big East? realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.htmlThe Big East has the highest RPI AND the toughest SOS, and they have barely touched the conference season...
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Post by dcvalpo on Jan 3, 2011 10:17:30 GMT -5
Let me also state for the record, that I am a Valpo fan and not a Big East fan...I do love Notre Dame, but I just legitimately think the Big East is the best conference.
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Post by agibson on Jan 3, 2011 10:21:51 GMT -5
#1 Ohio State also plays the 180th best schedule...what teams are playing tougher schedules overall than the Big East? realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.htmlThe Big East has the highest RPI AND the toughest SOS, and they have barely touched the conference season... To be fair, the SWAC has the toughest SOS. But, I guess noone's arguing they're the best conference overall
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Post by valpo84 on Jan 3, 2011 12:06:41 GMT -5
dcvalpo--not questioning your valpo love or even the ND love. However on ND, they have shown that playing cupcakes has not prepared them well for NCAA games against mid-majors. It would be better for them to play Valpo and MAC teams than Stony Brook and Maine. I also said ND's 27 ranking in KenPom was about right as of now.
I'm just challenging the BigLeast proposition --that it is the best conference. In general, it's a subjective debate based on what one perceives as the qualities that make a conference best. Unfortunately, and which has not been refuted, is historically, the BigLeast plays a disproportionate schedule of cupcakes and twinkies at their respective homes, come out with lofty preseason records, and then claim that a bunch of 13-0, 12-1 teams make it the best conference and they should have 8-10 bids. Then we hear all the gnashing of teeth that a 8-8 or 7-9 BigLeast team should get in to the tourney because the conference is so tough. I agree it is competitive, that there are some very high quality players in the conference, but an 8-8 or 7-9 team from any conference should not be in the tourney...period. If you can't have a better than .500 record from a BCS conference, then go play in the NIT. You may be right that they are the best conference. I just haven't seen any teams that stand out yet, and the ones I have seen, are typical for the BigLeast -- overrated and having at least a major deficiency that good coaching can exploit when it counts.
I am not sure where Ohio State is either at this stage. Their outside shooting will be the key. They have ok wins against FLA, Fl State and SCar, but no signature win yet. I like Mich State and Purdue over them.
BTW, this BigLeast debate is an old one for me so we're just having some fun reviewing the arguments.
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