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Post by orusisko on Mar 11, 2006 15:46:52 GMT -5
Ok, I tried and tried to get you to provide a resource, but instead you attack my form of writing which doesn't fit your style which is fine. From your argument style, I can tell that you are not very educated, hence it is hard for you to comprehend the style of argument which is Chicag-debate style, it is meant for two people who don't need to repeat a frame of reference, obviously you did not know that and I apologize for speaking above your head, but because I don't want to copy and paste like a third grader who has no attention span, I guess you intelligence has surrendered on grounds that you refuse to provide documentation as I have already provided mine. (STATEMENT DR170 of the CRI)
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Post by rick on Mar 11, 2006 16:59:25 GMT -5
continued:
SPINNING THE ISSUES
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The story of Jesus feeding 5,000 tired, hungry people with two loaves of bread and two fish in John 6:1-14 is a much bigger scene than meets the eye. It's a story about you and me when we're hurting-when we're down to our last few dollars and the bills are piling up. This miracle tells us that when we come to the end of ourselves, we're in position to cross over to the miraculous. If Jesus could stretch the little boy's seed-lunch into miracle proportions to feed a crowd of 5,000, He can multiply our seeds of faith into a miracle supply." Richard Roberts, e-mail newsletter, Daily Guide to Miracles from Oral Roberts Ministries, Sunday, October 24th, 2004 Richard Roberts attempts to twist the meaning of the feeding of the 5,000 into a demonstration of the benefits of seed faith. It does not matter to him that the crowd was gathered because they came to see Jesus perform signs and heal, and they were not believers in Him or would not be considered Christians. None of the crowd expressed faith for the miracle of food provided for them. But, those minor difficulties do not deter Richard Roberts from his goal of claiming that the incident is a demonstration of "seed-faith" in action. He claims that the two dried fish and five cakes of bread that were brought by the young child were a "seed-lunch" given as a seed-offering, and that the miracle was performed in response to that offering. The difficulty for Richard Roberts to overcome, is that the lunch was brought by the child for himself and not as an offering, and the child had no concept or understanding of "seed-faith," a teaching invented by Oral Roberts over 1,900 years later. Richard Roberts attempts to justify the seed-faith doctrine, which is the financial foundation that powers the Oral Roberts Ministries empire. Many people have adopted the "seed-faith" concept and it has been incorporated into Word of Faith theology as the "Giving and Receiving" doctrine.
The miracle of the feeding of the 5,000 has nothing to do with faith in order to obtain a miracle, and there is no teaching in the narrative indicating that miracle-working faith is the issue. Jesus knew what He was going to do prior to the lunch being presented to him. Verse 6 says, "This He was saying to test him, for He Himself knew what he was intending to do." Jesus did not need the two fishes and 5 loaves of bread in order to perform the miracle which he had already determined to do prior to being informed of the existence of the lunch..
No one expressed any "seed-faith" during the incident: the disciples did not know where the food could be obtained, the crowd didn't think or know that Jesus would feed them and the narrative presents no indication that the child presented the food as a "seed-lunch," a concept about which he would have known absolutely nothing.
Jesus clears the issue on that subject, when he told the same crowd the next day, . "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled," John 6:26. The narrative continues and the reality of what the crowd wanted is revealed, "So they said to Him, 'What do You do for a sign so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, "'He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.'"' Jesus then said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.' Then they said to Him, 'Lord, always give us this bread.' Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of life; he who comes to me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe," John 6:30-36. The miracle of the feeding of the 5,000 was not a demonstration of the concept of "seed-faith" but it was a demonstration of their lack of faith and unbelief, both in the disciples and the crowd, which is just the opposite of the "seed-faith" concept that Richard Roberts claims the incident shows. The disciples did not know where the food would be found, and the crowd did not believe in Jesus even after the miracle, vs. 36. The feeding of the 5,000 is a much bigger scene that meets the eye, as Richard Roberts states, but it is not about the scene that he describes. It is not about "you and me when we're hurting-when we're down to our last few dollars and the bills are piling up." It is not about a miracles that "tells us that when we come to the end of ourselves, we're in position to cross over to the miraculous." It is about an unbelieving people who tried to trick Jesus Christ into providing more free food for their temporal wants, by demanding that He prove himself by means of a sign, when they had already seen Him heal the sick and miraculously provide food for them the day before, vs. 30. It is about unbelieving people who put God and Jesus to the test in order to satisfy their own carnal desires, and then reject their true spiritual needs and the only person who can satisfy those needs.
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Post by rick on Mar 11, 2006 17:00:46 GMT -5
continued.....
HEALING ISSUES
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Roberts claims to be a conduit of healing power from God, but that is suspect, because, like his father and all the other current group of healing evangelists, he can only heal the invisible. Missing arms and legs don't miraculously reappear. Missing eyes are not restored and disfigurements are not corrected. Congenital physical defects are not erased and the mentally impaired are not made whole. He claims to heal that which even he cannot see, through the medium of his television broadcast. Night after night, he calls out healings for various diseases, never specifying the name of the person, or persons, being healed, but tells them to call him when they believe they have been healed. God tells Richard Roberts what kind of disease is being healed at the moment, but neglects to inform him of just who is being healed. The healing portions of the broadcast become so routine, that he falls into a trap of repetition, many times saying that God has told him there will be "...at least 16 people healed tonight..." Apparently God is specific up to the number 16, but after that he is not too sure.
One recurring healing is for those people who have cysts, and it is claimed that they fall from the faces of those who have received their miracle. There seem to be many people who have cysts on their faces, but those people never appear on the television program with their doctors and the documentation to prove their disease and healing. Another unusual claim was that God was healing painful belly-buttons. Now to the person with a painful belly-button, it is no small matter. But are there medical procedures that are sufficient to handle those types of problems that do not require a miracle? The claim of belly-button healings is a symptom of the problem inherent in Richard Roberts' claims. He eventually trivializes what he claims to be a miracle. Instead of miracles being those events which have no explanation or cannot occur by any other means, they become the relief of lower back pain, claims of cysts falling from faces and healings of painful belly-buttons, none of which are verified. This is trivial nonsense presented as a deep, spiritual movement by the sovereign creator God of the universe. When the real healings are attempted, such as the child who is soon to die of cancer, the reality of what is claimed does become apparent, as the failure to heal for real is seen by the whole world. In that case, there is no invisibility, and failure is always the case. But to the faithful adherents, it makes no difference.
Many times, while he is speaking, Richard Roberts will suddenly interrupt himself and say, "Yes Lord, I'll do that." The implication being that God has given him a revelation at that very moment, and how convenient that it would happen just when everyone can see it. God waits for the television show to broadcast and then begins to reveal many things through Richard Roberts. Richard Roberts' claim to a belief in continuing revelation from God is expressed almost nightly by his claims to receive knowledge about healings through the direct revelation of God.
The healing gift is not limited to Richard Roberts. One night while he was interviewing one of the professors of Oral Roberts University, not to be outdone by President Roberts, the professor began to call out healings also. Everyone can be a miracle healer when there is an audience and one must take advantage of the moment that is given.
In order to support his claims about healing, which are not found in the Scripture, Richard Robert's resorts to twisted interpretations of the Scripture, which he attempts to use in order to give legitimacy to what he teaches. Most people are not careful about what they believe in relation to what he says about the Scripture, so if they do not actually read the Scriptures which he uses, they will be deceived by what he claims is found in them. One of these distortions is found in the August 23, 2004 e-mail newsletter, "Daily Guide to Miracles from Oral Roberts Ministries," in which he states the following: Healing Is Not a Luxury Richard Roberts
"When Jesus told the woman from Canaan that healing was the children's bread (Matthew 15:26), He gave us a powerful truth. Bread is basic to human existence. Throughout the world. most people eat some type of bread. So if healing is bread for God's children, that means it's not a luxury. It's a necessity. It's a basic provision God has given to all believers to sustain us in this life. In other words, healing is not a sideline of the Gospel. It's the mainline! It's God's supernatural provision for all of His Children." When the verse is read, it becomes readily apparent that the bread referred to is not healing. If that were the case, then the reference also applies to animals as well, because the children's bread was also fed to the dogs, vs. 26. It is a very tough claim to prove that healing is in the atonement for family pets as well as all Christians.
The sheep in the passage are the people of Israel, to whom Jesus Christ came as the Messiah, and the children are representative of them also. The dogs are those who are not of Israel, who the Canaanite woman represented and the bread is the representation of all the blessings of the kingdom that was promised to Israel. But the Canaanite woman hoped to only eat of the crumbs of those blessing, those things that were left over. If the passage is teaching anything at all about healing, it is teaching that it is a minor part of the main loaf of bread, not that it is the major portion. In other words, healing is only the leftover crumbs; far from being the "mainline" message of the gospel. But, even that is not what is being represented in the verses. Richard Robert's claim that healing is given to all believers and is the "mainline" of the gospel is not taught there, but is simply a convenient claim by him. Jesus Himself denies what the bread of the children is in Richard Robert's theology, when He says the following: "And Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.'" John 6:35
"'I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this brad, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.' The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, 'How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?' Then Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. he who eats my flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on me will live because of Me. This is the brad which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.'" John 6:48-58 The "mainline" message of the gospel is not that bread is representative of physical healing, but that Jesus Christ is the bread of life that gives eternal life and forgiveness of sins.
ORU Engineering Students Take Wheelchair Challenge,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DATE: 11/14/2000 Tulsa, OK,. - - Last August, three organizations, Joni and Friends (the disability outreach of Joni Eareckson Tada), Texas Hydraulics, and Dare Mighty Things, visited the Oral Roberts University campus with a special challenge for a class of ORU engineering students: improve the prototype of a wheelchair for use in Third World countries.
There are currently 25 million people in the world in need of wheelchairs; however, in some countries, the cost of a wheelchair may equal three or four years' wages. Chairs provided by relief organizations often last only a few months in countries without paved streets or sidewalks. Broken wheelchairs usually cannot be repaired locally and become useless. That's why the ORU students were asked to use their creativity on a different kind of wheelchair_one designed specifically for Third World conditions.
"The best way to teach engineering is to engage the students in the actual creative practice of engineering. The wheelchair project is part of a solution to a real-world problem, which requires teamwork, communication, research, planning, analysis, building, testing, economics, and documentation," says Dr. Dominic Halsmer, Chair of the Engineering and Physics Department.
The chair, known as the WorldChair, must be low-cost, durable, low-maintenance, repairable using locally available materials, light-weight, adaptable to any body size, corrosion-resistant, and must use interchangeable components, including tires that are free of rigid or foamed materials. Eleven engineering students studying in the mechanical engineering emphasis have been working with Dr. Halsmer on the project and hope to have the new prototype completed by the end of the semester.
Feed the Children, an international charitable organization, is funding the prototype. When a working chair is developed and produced, it will be sold to relief organizations and other nongovernment organizations. The sponsoring organizations hope a manufacturing plant for the WorldChair will eventually be established in Africa. 18774000news
PRESS RELEASE ARTICLE - ORAL ROBERTS UNIVERSITY Copyright © 2000 Oral Roberts University
The above article is just one of those strange paradoxes that one encounters throughout life. The obvious question is, why would Oral Roberts University try to develop a wheelchair when its president, Richard Roberts, and former president and founder, Oral Roberts, claim they have the ability to heal? Perhaps the article serves to place in true perspective, the false claims by Richard Roberts that he can heal. The person who makes a claim to heal, but knows that he can't, engages in unconscionable conduct.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No false prophet can be successful unless he has a following, and followers are culpable when they make no attempt to verify the truthfulness of their leader against the truth of the Scripture and, as a consequence, they deceive themselves. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
END OF ARTICLE by Gary A. Hand On Doctrine
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Post by rick on Mar 11, 2006 17:17:23 GMT -5
Word-Faith Movement Also known as "Name-in-Claim-it," "Health and Wealth Gospel," "Positive Confession," "Word of Faith," etc. Word-Faith teachers owe their ancestry to groups like Christian Science, Swedenborgianism, Theosophy, Science of Mind, and New Thought--not to classical Pentecostalism. It reveals that at their very core, Word-Faith teachings are corrupt. Their undeniable derivation is cultish, not Christian. The sad truth is that the gospel proclaimed by the Word-Faith movement is not the gospel of the New Testament. Word-Faith doctrine is a mongrel system, a blend of mysticism, dualism, and gnosticism that borrows generously from the teachings of the metaphysical cults. The Word-Faith movement may be the most dangerous false system that has grown out of the charismatic movement so far, because so many charismatics are unsure of the finality of Scripture John MacArthur, Charismatic Chaos, p. 290
There are many perculiar ideas and practices in the Faith theology, but what merits it the label of heresy are the following: 1) its deistic view of God, who must dance to men's attempts to manipulate the spiritual laws of the universe; 2) its demonic view of Christ, who was filled with "the Satanic nature" and must be "born again in hell; 3) its gnostic view of revelation, which demands denial of the physical senses and classifies Christians by their willingness to do so; and 4) its metaphysical view of salvation, which deifies man and spiritualizes the atonement, locating it in hell rather than on the cross, thereby subverting the crucial biblical belief that it is Christ's physical death and shed blood, which alone atone for sin. All four of these heresies may be accounted for by Kenyon's syncretism of methaphysical thought with traditional biblical doctrine" D.R. McConnell, A Different Gospel
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Post by rick on Mar 11, 2006 17:30:51 GMT -5
(Jesus allegedly) instructed Robert's partners to take (a) picture of Oral and Richard (Roberts) "AND HOLD IT OVER the prayer sheet and your Seed-Faith gift so that the shadow of the picture COVERS THE ENTIRE SHEET." According to Jesus, this "becomes the point of contact for you to loose your faith." (Hank Hanegraaff, Christianity In Crisis, 1993, pg. 204 citing Oral and Richard Roberts, direct-mail letter (August 1984), 2-3 capitalization in original)
(Oral Roberts used the KJV translation of 3 John 2 to say to) his wife, "Evelyn, now this means that we're supposed to prosper" (as Christians). Roberts goes on to recount how, after discovering this verse, God gave him a brand-new Buick. ... Evelyn enthusiastically agreed with Oral that to propser "is God's highest wish for us." (Hank Hanegraaff, Christianity In Crisis, 1993, pg. 223 citing Roberts, "A Daily Guide to Miracles" (Tulsa, OK: Pinoak Press, 1975), 36-38 passim.)
Son Richard, as usual, had to face a press and try to explain his father's atrocious claims (about raising people from the dead). He said that there were "dozens upon dozens upon dozens" of documented cases of such resurrection, and I decided to switch the direction of my inquiries. Knowing full well that a mere healing is nothing compared to a resurrection, I sent this telegram to Oral Roberts on June 30, 1987: "Please provide me with one identifiable case of a resurrection from the dead brought about by Oral Roberts, regardless of the sources of the power used to accomplish this wonder. Since resurrections are not considered commonplace, I will accept documentation of such an event in place of any of the other evidences of healing by Reverend Roberts that I have been seeking." Need I tell you that no response was ever received? (James Randi, The Faith Healers, 1989, p.195)
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Post by orusisko on Mar 11, 2006 17:33:48 GMT -5
Okay, i'll read these, but I thank you for presenting some resources, but right now I'm watching the Indiana-Ohio Match up!
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Post by rick on Mar 11, 2006 18:21:02 GMT -5
THE WORD OF FAITH What's the big deal about TBN? If you've ever stopped to look at your local Christian TV programming, you may have seen some well-dressed men talking or singing in what looks like an ornate living room. There are gold, throne-like chairs, rich red carpet, and an elaborate staircase. The haircuts, jewelry, and suits combine with the set to communicate material abundance. Alternately, you may have seen a man on a stool reading letters about people who were healed at home as they watched a previous broadcast. Or a revival meeting in which crowds of people fall unconscious, or a man who claims to have raised people from the dead during a recent mission trip. If so, you may have stumbled upon the Word of Faith movement.
Also known as Word-Faith or simply the Faith movement, the teaching is distinctive because of its focus on the believer's authority and rights over the physical world. This movement goes beyond the conventional charismatic belief in healing ministries and miraculous gifts. The general idea in Word of Faith teaching is that God's will is for every Christian to be gloriously healthy and wealthy; that Jesus died not only to take away our sins, but also our sicknesses, poverty, and other problems. Christians can overcome disease, loss, and debt simply by laying claim to the Bible's promises of an abundant life. The primary outlets of Word of Faith teaching are the Trinity Broadcasting Network, the Harrison House publishing company, and Oral Roberts University.
According to most Word of Faith teachers, there are three keys to receiving God's material blessings:
1. Recognize and have faith that God truly desires your happiness, and that your troubles are not from God, but are attacks from Satan. 2. Speak aloud to activate that faith and bring what you desire into reality. (This is called positive confession, or speaking a "word of faith".) 3. Plant a "seed" by giving to a faithful (i.e., Word of Faith) Christian ministry, and you will reap a harvest.
Word of Faith teaching did not originate with theologians or scholars, but there are a number of theological presuppositions behind this movement. One is that humans, as the image of God, have access to the same creative power He does. Faith is understood as a force by which God "calls those things which are not as though they were" (Rom. 4:17, KJV). This is called positive confession; when we say to our bodies, "You're healthy," we create health in our body. Likewise, we can bring hardship by negative confession–literally speaking ourselves sick, poor, or even dead. The support for this occasionally comes from Bible verses (such as Heb. 11:1-3) but more often consists in the teachers' personal revelations and visions. Rather than "The Bible says," the Word of Faith teacher prefers to say, "God revealed this to me."
Another underlying idea is an absolutist understanding of the promises of God: that regardless of where, to whom, or for what purpose a promise was spoken, that promise is for all believers who will claim it, and need not be qualified by its biblical context. For this reason, Word of Faith preachers will often quote promises in a rapid-fire fashion from all over Scripture, and tend to discourage any systematic interpretation of the text. For these preachers, one of the central messages of Scripture is that we Christians can have whatever we dare to claim for ourselves; as Word of Faith leader Ken Hagin has said, you can "write your own ticket with God." Here are some of the verses they frequently use for support: [also called proof-texting]
"And you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth" (Deut. 8:18). "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of Yahweh your God and rejoice, you and your household" (Deut. 14:26). "Every place that the sole of your foot will tread upon I have given you" (Josh. 1:3). "Only be strong and very courageous...that you may prosper wherever you go" (Josh. 1:7). "Believe His prophets, and you shall prosper" (2 Chr. 20:20). "The wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous" (Prov. 13:22). "The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed" (Isa. 53:5). "Whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive" (Matt. 21:22). "Whatever a man sows, that he will also reap" (Gal. 6:7). "And whatever we ask we receive from Him" (1 John 3:22). "I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper" (3 John 2, KJV).
One other important theological undercurrent is what might be called a transference view of authority over this world. A number of Word of Faith teachers–Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn being primary among them–begin their teaching with Genesis. They explain that God gave Adam and Eve power to control this universe, but that man gave that authority over to Satan when he sinned. Thus, Satan was rightfully "the god of this world" (2 Cor. 4:4). God negotiated a covenant with Abraham that developed into His relationship with Israel and, ultimately, the coming of Christ. Christ was offered to Satan in exchange for the rights to this world, but Satan had not counted on Christ's resurrection. Now all who believe in Jesus have creative authority–and the abundance associated with it–as part of their inheritance with Christ. Other Word of Faith teachers focus on the covenant with Abraham as giving believers this authority.
In Word of Faith teaching, there is also an emphasis on the special position and authority of the leading Word of Faith teachers. They often speak as prophets or recipients of the Spirit's mysteries–even personal visitations from Jesus. They are introduced as having a special "anointing" of the Holy Spirit that empowers them to do miracles. Some even send out handkerchiefs they have blessed, and it is common for them to have a "word of knowledge" about a viewer in need, describe the ailment, and declare that person healed.
There are other disturbing aspects of Word of Faith teaching, such as relocating Christ's atonement in His descent into hell rather than on the cross, claiming that Satan can thwart God's will but not our spoken confessions, teaching that Jesus was materially rich during His ministry, and suggesting that Christ, as the Word, was spoken into existence by positive confession. Word of Faith preaching tends to follow a set pattern: (1) Present a discovery of a doctrine that was received by revelation or has been covered up by the church, (2) present the concept of Word-Faith or Seed-Faith as a way of realizing God's intended blessings, (3) appeal to the audience for money, and (4) along the way, sprinkle in anecdotes and unusual interpretations of Bible stories. But it is nearly impossible to construct anything like a systematic theology for the movement; the leading figures all have their own emphases and sometimes contradict one another or even their own previous statements.
.....The extravagant lifestyle of Word of Faith teachers is not a secret–they present their wealth as proof that the teaching works; of course, little attention is given to the millions who give what little hard-earned money they have and receive nothing in return. Most of the televangelist scandals of the late 1980s were part of the Word of Faith movement–Robert Tilton, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, and James Bakker (who has since reformed). While over the years their methods have been exposed, their miracles have been demonstrated false, and their prophecies have gone unfulfilled, the ministries continue. TBN is a worldwide network and a practical monopoly on non-satellite Christian programming. Even Christian teachers who oppose Word of Faith teaching–Jack Hayford, Hugh Ross, Charles Stanley, etc.–have little choice but to purchase time on TBN if they wish to reach a large audience with the gospel.
Having analyzed quite a bit of TBN, I am convinced that the Word of Faith is false teaching in every sense of the term, and fails every test of orthodoxy. The gospel is redefined and given a material focus, holiness is a means to prosperity, and much of the ministry seems merely a ploy for preachers to get rich off the desperate hopes of their viewers. Whereas liberalism assaulted the faith by denying everything, the Word of Faith does so by making the ludicrous a chief article of Christianity. Most disturbing is that through TBN, the Word of Faith is the version of Christianity that the American viewer most readily sees. Believers should be aware of who these teachers are and the danger they represent, both inside the church and without.
Recommended Reading: Entries for the major Word of Faith teachers are located in the Christian Authors Database. I analyze Word of Faith claims in more detail in this article. The most impressive treatment of the movement I have seen is Hank Hanegraaff's Christianity in Crisis. Robert Bowman's The Word-Faith Controversy is more objective and even-tempered than Hanegraaff, but is occasionally too generous in giving the benefit of the doubt. I still recommend it, however. Richard Abanes' article on the movement has been added as an appendix to the revised edition of Walter Martin's The Kingdom of the Cults. John Ankerberg, Charles Colson, and John MacArthur have also written against the movement
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Post by rick on Mar 11, 2006 20:01:07 GMT -5
From the ORU Website:
Richard Roberts is a man who is on fire for God. He has the anointing of God's Spirit to preach and pray for the sick with mighty miracles, healings, and deliverance following. The driving force behind this dynamic evangelist is the compassion of Jesus Christ for sick and hurting people. President Roberts states, "Jesus was born to step into a world of trouble and bring healing and deliverance. That is the call of God upon my own life—to step into the troubles and heartaches of people everywhere, to pray and believe God, and to bring a word of hope and resurrection."
Everywhere he goes, President Roberts brings the message of a healing, saving, and delivering Jesus. As he ministers, there is a tremendous move of the Spirit, resulting in decisions for Christ, healings, and deep commitments to serve God. Since 1980, he has conducted crusades on six continents.
Roberts is the author of many books. His latest include Claim Your Inheritance, If You're Going Through Hell, Don't Stop!, If You Catch Hell, Don't Hold It! and The Source, The Seed, The Answer. President Roberts' life story is told in the book titled He's the God of a Second Chance! Nearly 500,000 requests have been received for this book.
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Post by orusisko on Mar 11, 2006 22:09:03 GMT -5
Okay rick, I read your resources. Alot of this stuff is just a biography (the post one directly up), or an uncited work on somebodies opinion on seed-faith. Other than the scripture, alot of this stuff is just opinion, with slight facts mentioned to lend creedence, we both know your stretching it here, but I'll add more later. None of this really proves any of your accusations. Sure Dr. ROberts claims he has the gift to heal the sick, that was never argued.
I sent you a private message.
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Post by rick on Mar 11, 2006 23:06:35 GMT -5
In 1987, during a fundraising drive, he announced that unless he raised $8 million by that March, God would "call him home" (a traditional Christian euphemism for death). Later that year, Roberts announced that God had raised the dead through his ministry. "Time" magazine carried this article in their July 13, 1987 issue including testimony by Richard Roberts, (part of his ministry) that he had seen his father raise a child from the dead.
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Post by rick on Mar 11, 2006 23:31:18 GMT -5
TULSA, Okla. – Evangelist Oral Roberts, whose plea for $8 million to save his life focused attention on his ministry earlier this year, said this week he has raised the dead and will return after his own death to rule alongside Jesus Christ. Roberts’ comments, made to about 5,000 people at the closing session of the three-day Charismatic Bible Ministries Conference on Thursday, were broadcast nationally Friday on his son’s "Richard Roberts Live" program. Richard Roberts acknowledged his father’s statements were sure to arouse controversy. He held up a newspaper with a headline about Oral Roberts’ claims. "The good news is, they're printing the truth," Richard Roberts said. "I’m so glad the newspapers are beginning to get the story right..." The elder Roberts, whose 40-year ministry originated with tent revivals in which the sick came to be healed, told his fellow ministers Thursday he also has brought the dead back to life. "All of us in the ministry could talk about that—of certain dead ones raised, died right while I was preaching," Roberts said. "I had to stop and go back in the crowd and raise the dead person so I could go ahead with the service. "That did increase my altar call (audience response) that night," Roberts said, drawing laughter from the crowd at Oral Roberts University’s Mabee Center. On his program Friday, Richard Roberts said be recalled one instance in his boyhood when he said a dead child was brought back to life by his father. "Right in the middle of my dad’s sermon a woman came running up to the platform with her baby in her arms screaming ‘My baby has just died,’" Richard Roberts said. "The child had died during the service. My dad had to stop in the middle of his sermon and lay hands on that child. And that child came back to life again. "There are probably dozens and dozens and dozen of documented instances of people who have been raised from the dead," Richard Roberts said after he and guests on the program recounted stories about the dead being revived… [Oral] Roberts has criticized media coverage of his request for money to fund medical missionary scholarships at ORU. In March 1986, he said God told him to raise $8 million from followers or his life would be forfeited by the end of March 1987… On April 1, Roberts announced that the money had been raised and that his life had been spared.
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Post by rick on Mar 15, 2006 15:52:35 GMT -5
I am writing verbatim from Christianity in Crisis by Hank Hanegraaff, p.195:
Chapter 18: Cons and Cover-Ups
Have a Need, Plant a Seed
"In a book titled Ashes to Gold, Patti Roberts compares the 'seed faith' tactic of former father-in-law Oral Roberts to Johann Tetzel's practice of selling indulgences. "....One distinction Patti did observe was that Oral was more subtle than Tetzel. Rather than offering salvation in exchange for money, Oral appealed to such basic instincts as fear and greed. And he is not alone. Oral's tactics have become standard fare among many Faith teachers. While they may not promise their partners heavenly paradise, they do promise them earthly prosperity. Like Tetzel, many of them have become masters at inventing catchy couplets to make their ideas both understandable and memorable. One seed-faith ditty goes something like this:
Have a need, plant a seed."
more later.....
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Post by rick on Mar 20, 2006 19:38:30 GMT -5
Hank Hanegraaff continued.....[All bold mine]
What exactly is seed-faith? According to Oral Roberts, "The seed of giving is the seed of faith! And the seed has to be planted BEFORE we can speak to our mountain of need to be removed!" 9 Simply stated, "planting a seed" is virtually synonymous with "mail me money." The seed-faith gimmick is little more than a give-to-get gospel of greed.
Oral Roberts has used both television and the mail to raise millions of dollars. His method has been described as "the lowest form of emotional appeal." 10 In his many mailings, Roberts appeals to the sympathies of his partners as well as their greed.
[After Oral Roberts' most notorious money-raising campaign in which he told his followers God would take his life if he didn't raise it]
HH continues:
Some time later, Oral's son, Richard, took pen in hand to warn of his father's impending doom. Without "the additional $4,500,000," explains Richard, "God will not extend Dad's life." He then pleads, "Partner, we cannot let this man of God die. There is no reason for him to die." And this is no idle threat, Richard claims. As he puts it, "When he [Oral] says God speaks to him, he's not bluffing." And just in case someone should doubt or suspect his motives, Richard offers his stirring assurance: "I feel totally called by God to do this...I'm writing to you as an anointed servant of God - doing what God has called me to do." 15
After several pages Richard finally gets to the seed-faith solution. Take the enclosed birthday card, slip in a seed-faith gift "check," and "then RUSH IT TO ME TODAY." 16
By the end of the letter, Richard Roberts had done virtually everything to assure his partners that this was a deal they couldn't afford to pass up. Send your seed-faith gift and Richard will be proud of you, Oral will pray for you, and God will prosper you.
So much for the sympathy ploy. But that's just the beginning. His father is not opposed to using fear to threaten his followers.
[to be continued]
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Post by rick on Mar 20, 2006 19:59:30 GMT -5
[brief commercial] ;D Robert Tilton Robert Tilton hit the big time as a fisher of funds by developing a religious infomercial called Success-N-Life. It all began when he traveled to Hawaii to hear from the Lord. Says Tilton, "If I'm going to go to the cross, I'm going to go in a pretty place. Not some dusty place like Jerusalem. That's gravel is all that place is."42 While languishing in his exotic wilderness, Tilton "realized his mission was to persuade the poor to give what they could to him — as God's surrogate — so they too could be blessed."43 Then, one day, Tilton tuned in to television and turned on to Dave Del Dotto's real estate infomercials. The rest is history. Tilton used what he saw as a prototype44 for building an empire that takes in as much as $65 million per year.45 It now appears that Tilton's ill-gotten gains may dwindle rapidly amid reports of scandal and a variety of lawsuits.46 Responding to charges from ABC's Prime Time Live that the prayer request letters he promises to pray over end up in dumpsters, Tilton claims, "I laid on top of those prayer requests so much that the chemicals actually got into my bloodstream, and . . . I had two small strokes in my brain."47 [This guy is the biggest huckster of them all. And he's STILL on TV. Even after being exposed, he finds a way to get his "vow money" from the gullible. Ever seen this guy? Watch out!]
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Post by rick on Mar 21, 2006 9:45:57 GMT -5
[HH contines] [All bold mine]
In one instance [Oral] Roberts wrote his partners that he had some good news and some bad news. The bad news was that God supernaturally revealed that 1985 would be a terrible year for Robert's partners. "Satan is going to bring bad things against you," stated Roberts. "Worry...Fear...stress [that] will be a serious threat against your health. Even worse, I see Satan [LOL!] is going to make his biggest effort to surround you with so many problems you will feel a sense of hopelessness."17
The good news, however, is that Roberts has already consulted God [LOL!] about "Satan's bad year against you." Supernaturally, "the gift of prophecy came on me," he writes, "and 33 predictions were given me concerning you."18 These predictions, Roberts promised, will help you to "avoid TERRIBLE NEW DISEASES" and to "take advantage of the hundredfold return.....to receive....PROSPERITY MIRACLES."19
After sternly warning, "IF YOU NEGLECT TO PAY ATTENTION....[uh, you mean send you money?]then Satan will take advantage and hit you with bad things and you will wish that 1985 had never come,"20 Roberts closed his letter with a hard sell. Sending a seed-faith gift will not only enable you to "STOP SATAN IN HIS HATE TO BRING YOU DOWN," it will also "help you get your hundredfold return." 21
"PROSPERITY MIRACLES...are within fingertip reach of your faith," claimed Roberts. 22 Of course, the key was to use your fingertips to send money. Appealing to greed, Roberts held out the prospect of financial gain to those who would send him the green.
[more later....]
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