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Post by rick on Mar 10, 2006 0:16:48 GMT -5
I posted this on the ORU board and it was removed. I asked them to tell me if any of it was true. They started the thread about others making claims that were not true about Oral Roberts and fund raising. I was just following the thread. After this post, I was told this was a basketball thread and not to make ad hominem remarks. Huh?
[The following report is from O Timothy magazine, Volume 7, Issue 3, 1990. O Timothy is a monthly magazine. David W. Cloud, Editor. Annual subscription is US$20 FOR THE UNITED STATES. Send to Way of Life Literature, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061-0368, fbns@wayoflife.org. FOR CANADA the subscription is $20 Canadian. Send to Bethel Baptist Church, P.O. Box 9075, London, Ontario N6E 1V0.]
ORAL ROBERTS' FALSE PROPHECIES
Media Spotlight has documented a long list of Oral Roberts' claims in a special report from which we quote.
1960: Roberts claimed that God had told him to make His healing power known throughout the earth. This report appeared in Charisma magazine in May 1987: "In 1960, Roberts believed God spoke to his heart and said:
`Raise up your students to hear My Voice, to go where My light is dim, where My voice and My healing power is not known. To go even to uttermost bounds of the earth. Their work will exceed yours. And in this, I am well pleased."
Media Spotlight says that to date, none of Roberts' students' work has exceeded his, at least as far as his publicity has revealed.
1977: Roberts said he had received a vision from God telling him to build the City of Faith. He later claimed to have seen a 900- foot-tall Jesus who told him that the vision would soon be realized and that the hospital would be a success. The City of Faith opened in 1981.
1983: Roberts announced that Jesus had appeared to him in person and commissioned him to find a cure for cancer (Time, July 4, 1983).
Media Spotlight says there has been no cure for cancer found at the Oral Roberts University or anywhere else.
1986: Roberts said God had told him, "I want you to use the ORU medical school to put My medical presence in the earth. I want you to get this going in one year or I will call you home. It will cost $8 million and I want you to believe you can raise it." (Abundant Life, Jan./Feb. 1987)
January 1987: Roberts said God had told him he had not sent out any medical missionaries. In order for him to do that, he had to raise $8 million by March 1 or God would take him home. Roberts said the money would be used to provide full scholarships for medical missionaries who would be sent to Third World countries. He made the appeal in his TV program "Expect a Miracle" of January 4, 1987.
He said $3.5 million had been raised and all he needed was $4.5 million before March 1 that year.
April 1, 1987: Roberts announced that he had raised $9.1 million--$1.1 million more than needed. Of the money raised, $1.3 million was given by a dog track owner [which, like horse racing, is a gambling center], Jerry Collins.
November 1987: Roberts announced that the City of Faith medical clinic will close in three months.
January 1988: Roberts canceled the university's free medical tuition program despite his claim that God had told him to make the medical school a world outreach program.
March 1988: The medical scholarship fund went bankrupt. Students were required to repay scholarship funds at 18 percent annual interest if they transferred to another school rather than stay at ORU medical school and start paying the high tuition.
September 1989: Roberts decided to close the medical school and the City of Faith hospital to pay off debts.
The Editor of Watch! makes these important comments: "This list of claims and promises is a very serious matter indeed. Several questions beg to be asked: Is the `900-foot-Jesus' a lying, seducing, evil spirit? If it was really Jesus, why did He not fulfill His promises? Why did not God take Roberts home when he failed to raise the money before March 1? Or was it another of Roberts' false pretenses to raise money? What happened to all the money that was raised? Will it be returned to those who gave in sincerity?
"More importantly, several doctrinal issues are at stake. For example, is there any truth in the charismatic claims of continuing visions, revelations, and prophecies? We believe the saga of Oral Roberts and his City of Faith puts the whole charismatic movement in its proper perspective--that there are many false prophets within."
"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:20-22
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Post by rick on Mar 10, 2006 19:36:33 GMT -5
Found this on ondoctrine.com True?
Richard Roberts has continued on in the tradition of his father ORAL ROBERTS and is heir apparent to the evangelistic and educational empire created by him. Preaching virtually the same doctrine as his father, Richard Roberts is deeply involved in the Charismatic movement and has manifested the laughing phenomenon known as the TORONTO BLESSING in meetings held by Rodney Howard-Browne, which were televised.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DOCTRINAL ISSUES
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FALSE DOCTRINE - The Holy Spirit Richard Roberts, by associating himself with the false teaching of Rodney Howard-Browne ("The Holy Spirit Bartender"), Karl Strader and the Toronto Blessing sensationalism, prompts serious questions, because in doing so he also aligns himself with John Arnott whose views regarding the Holy Spirit and the Toronto Blessing are also heretical.
FALSE DOCTRINE - Commanding God Richard Roberts has bought into the "Word of Faith Doctrine" which is very similar to the "Seed Faith" doctrine taught by he and his father. The "Word of Faith" teaching essentially claims that a person can command God, by means of using the right words in prayer, to provide virtually any desire that a Christian might have. If the right words are used, then God is obligated by certain laws to act on behalf of what is requested. God then becomes a spiritual genie, acting under the sovereignty of human beings rather than being the sovereign God of the universe under which all human beings are subject. Richard Roberts associates with and accepts the teaching of many Word of Faith teachers, among them are: Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, Marilyn Hickey, R.W. Schambach, Creflo Dollar and Jerry Savelle. Richard Roberts also embraces the ministry and teaching of Benny Hinn whose numerous false prophecies have revealed him to be a false prophet. See also: The False Claims of the Prayer of Agreement - Matthew 18:19.
By making these types of alliances and giving support to those who share heretical beliefs, Richard Roberts reveals that he is part of the dark world of the hyper-Charismatic movement and is lacking in spiritual discernment. His salvation has not genuinely delivered him from error to truth.
FALSE DOCTRINE - Continuing Revelation Richard Roberts claims that God speaks and appears to him. Perhaps he has not seen a 900 foot tall Jesus like his father, but he believes and teaches the doctrine of continuing revelation. The doctrine of continuing revelation has led to disaster and embarrassment in the life of his father. Oral Roberts claimed that God revealed to him the plan for the "City of Faith Medical Center" where God told him that he would find a cure for cancer. It was claimed that God told Oral Roberts to raise 8 million dollars to keep the City of Faith going, or He would kill Oral Roberts. After he raised the money, he claimed that there was 1 million dollars more than was needed. Eight months later, the City of Faith failed and the whole operation closed. Oral Roberts has not found the cure for cancer. God is made to look like a failure because of the false claims of revelation by Oral Roberts.
The doctrine of continuing revelation is a monumental and cruel hoax. Any person can claim to receive a direct revelation from God and no one can deny the claim of the person, no matter how outrageous the message because, by definition, a revelation is that which was not known before. This doctrine allowed Ruth Heflin to claim that she received a word from the Lord and told Benny Hinn that Jesus Christ would appear on the platform in one of his meetings. The claim was outrageously foolish, but Benny Hinn broadcast it to the whole world, claiming that Jesus Christ would appear with him soon. Of course, Jesus Christ has never appeared with Benny Hinn on the platform, because the revelation was false.
The same difficulties, regarding direct revelation, must be faced by Richard Roberts. What credentials does he present when claiming to receive a revelation other than his word? Jesus Christ and the apostles could work miracles: heal, cast out demons and raise the dead. What can Richard Roberts do? He claims he can heal and he claims to bind the devil. His healings are of the invisible and unverifiable type and if he can bind the devil, the devil hasn't revealed that to anyone. People who claim to bind the devil are legion in number and have been making the claim for years, but the evil in the world continues unabated. The Bible states that the devil goes throughout the earth "like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may destroy." The Scripture is clear, that the devil is not bound, so for a person to claim that they can accomplish the task is ludicrous. By what measure does Richard Roberts claim to use in order to verify that he has, in fact, bound the devil? He has no measure to use and no proof to show, yet the claim is still made and Christians senselessly believe what they are told. It is not known, but it is extremely doubtful that Richard Roberts claims he can raise the dead, unlike his associate, Benny Hinn, who once said that people would be placing their dead relatives in front of the television sets during one of Benny Hinn's telecasts and they would be raised from the dead.
"I see, I see quite something amazing. I see rows of uhm, of caskets lining up in front of this TV set. And I see them bringing them closer to the TV set. And as people are coming closer, I see ah, a, actually loved ones picking up the hands of the dead and letting them touch the screen, and people are, are getting raised as their hands are touching that screen. The, the glory of God will be so on TBN that there's gonna be divine resurrection happening as people bring their loved ones to the TV set." Benny Hinn, TBN, Praise The Lord, October 23, 1999 Richard Roberts' desire to sustain his ministry connections and religious alliances in order to maintain his ministry position and high profile exceeds his desire to please God, and in fact, replaces his responsibility to teach correct doctrine.
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Post by rick on Mar 10, 2006 19:41:58 GMT -5
"Second, we know Jesus was not poor because He needed to have a treasurer. According to John 13:29, a disciple by the name of Judas Iscariot was Jesus' treasurer. Now a treasurer is needed by a person who must deal with large sums of money that has to be accounted for, write checks, make purchases and pay bills, taxes and debts. You ask, 'Did Jesus have that kind of money?' Yes, or He wouldn't have needed a treasurer. He had so much that later Judas stole from the treasury."
(Oral Roberts, "How I Learned Jesus Was Not Poor," page 16)
"Fifth, Jesus wore good clothes. Today we talk about 'Designer clothes,' that is, uniquely made and different from the ordinary. But Jesus' clothes were even better than that."
(Oral Roberts, "How I Learned Jesus Was Not Poor," page 24)
"Jesus was put in a rich man's trust to insure He had a proper burial place--actually, so that He might be buried with the rich."
(Oral Roberts, "How I Learned Jesus Was Not Poor," page 11)
"Jesus had a house large enough for guests."
(Oral Roberts, "How I Learned Jesus Was Not Poor," page 11)
"Jesus had a team, a large one that He had to support financially from city to city."
(Oral Roberts, "How I Learned Jesus Was Not Poor," page 11)
"Yes, Jesus had a house, a good one for the day in which He lived, and so can you. Stand on the Word of God that tells where Jesus dwelt and say, 'I will work, I will sow my seed, I will believe, and I will expect a miracle and get my house."
(Oral Roberts, "How I Learned Jesus Was Not Poor," page 15-16)
"Wearing His [Jesus] seamless robe, enrolled in a rich disciple's trust fund for His burial, and having a treasurer to handle His funds, He went up and down the land living example, proclaiming, 'I am come that you might have life and have it more abundantly.'"
(Oral Roberts, "How I Learned Jesus Was Not Poor," page 92)
"Jesus wore good clothes, clothes that many people today might call designer clothes, clothes that were costly and unique to His needs."
(Oral Roberts, "How I Learned Jesus Was Not Poor," page 11)
"Oral Roberts shows that not only was Jesus not poor, but in several important ways He was rich. Jesus had a house. He had a treasury adequate to finance His team ministry. He had a group of faithful donors, so on....He [Oral Roberts] gives practical teaching on breaking the spirit of poverty..."
(Oral Roberts, Back insert on cover of his book, "How I Learned Jesus Was Not Poor")
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Post by rlh on Mar 10, 2006 20:57:32 GMT -5
Hey Rick,
Just curious. Not trying to pick a fight, but what's up with the ORU diatribe you've been on?
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Post by rick on Mar 10, 2006 21:55:27 GMT -5
Hey Rick, Just curious. Not trying to pick a fight, but what's up with the ORU diatribe you've been on? Diatribe? Just looking for facts. No one should fear the facts. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Especially with things concerning faith.
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Post by orusisko on Mar 11, 2006 12:09:24 GMT -5
Well, I don't want to come out to biased, because obviously I am a little, but if you go looking for gossip online, you are going to find it. People have ridiculed O. ROberts for years because of his fund-raising, and I am not saying I agree with it entirely, but he made a claim that God wanted him to send missionaries, he did in fact raise the money in time, the medical prgram did in fact revolutionize the medical world in that area of the country, to this day there are still O. ROberts medical missionaries in the deepest jungles of Africa. So to that extent, he came through on his part. As for the brilliant technigue of punching something into *GOOGLE* and calling it factual, here's a little something for you Rick. iwasabducted.com/vidimagic/part1.htmI would paste it, but you may want to do some research there. It appears Aliens from outerspace have invaded the southern region of the United States. It's a good thing we have the great resources with thier great credentials to tell us about space invaders and O.ROb, or else we would be introuble, yea? (not that i disagree with you entirely, but use a good resource when slandering a man who is responsible for thousands of missionaries, thousands of teachers in ghettos across the world, and many, many ministries, more than I could ever say for Valpo)
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Post by valpo04 on Mar 11, 2006 13:11:03 GMT -5
When making an argument about the validity of someones statement, it is never good to make a statement of your own that has no validity. Maybe it is more than you "could ever say for Valpo" because you don't know about Valpo ministries or "teachers in ghettos" or maybe you do know about it and if that is the case, I would think you would post your knowledge or at least a link to a site that shows such.
As for Rick claiming these statements as truth, he stated in his first, second and fourth post on this topic that he is asking if this is true, not claiming that it is.
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Post by orusisko on Mar 11, 2006 13:17:29 GMT -5
I have no dislike for Valpo, and I do know quite a bit. I have a the strange role of being on both sides of the rivalry, an ORU Grad, later I applied and was accepted to VU Law. I have been a fan of both programs, whish is the only reason I feel I have the right to speak about both universities and minitries, and I am not downing VU or its wonderful ministries, I am simply saying that there are very few schools, including VU which can go toe-to-toe with how many missionaries Big O is responsible for.
I shouldn't have phrased it that way, you are right, and I apologize, but what I meant is that before you make claims of fact, you shouldd a.) use logical and credible resources b.) have room to talk
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Post by rick on Mar 11, 2006 13:36:56 GMT -5
Well, I don't want to come out to biased, because obviously I am a little, but if you go looking for gossip online, you are going to find it. People have ridiculed O. ROberts for years because of his fund-raising, and I am not saying I agree with it entirely, but he made a claim that God wanted him to send missionaries, he did in fact raise the money in time, the medical prgram did in fact revolutionize the medical world in that area of the country, to this day there are still O. ROberts medical missionaries in the deepest jungles of Africa. So to that extent, he came through on his part. As for the brilliant technigue of punching something into *GOOGLE* and calling it factual, here's a little something for you Rick. iwasabducted.com/vidimagic/part1.htmI would paste it, but you may want to do some research there. It appears Aliens from outerspace have invaded the southern region of the United States. It's a good thing we have the great resources with thier great credentials to tell us about space invaders and O.ROb, or else we would be introuble, yea? (not that i disagree with you entirely, but use a good resource when slandering a man who is responsible for thousands of missionaries, thousands of teachers in ghettos across the world, and many, many ministries, more than I could ever say for Valpo) Are the statements made by Oral Roberts about Jesus' house and the other statements in that post from his book true? Many sources from the other posts actually provide evidence from various sources and magazines. Your claims that he did raise the money in time have been shown from various sources to be false. Show me some proof. As to Mr. Roberts' statements provided in the other posts, if he in fact did say those things, why do you think that the reporting of them is gossip? If they are fact, why be embarrassed? Let's just seek and speak and report the truth and let the cards fall where they may. You seem to be very defensive about what has been reported by many, and some reliable, sources. If nothing else, based on what Oral Roberts has said or has claimed to have said (why would people make up a story?), being a Christian and having been associated with those words and actions that he has taken, I would want to pray for discernment because there is the appearance (and everyone has to do his own research and draw his/her own conclusions) of some very unorthodox, loony, and heretical practices going on with this man and also likely with his son. Do you deny that anything reported here so far is untrue? If so, tell me specifically what you deny about it and provide substantive evidence that it is untrue and I will consider it. Otherwise, you are blindly and mindlessly and apparently following not only what could be considered a Christian who is way off the orthodox reservation, but also a false prophet. Scripture is clear that anyone who claims to be a prophet of God and claims to know what will happen in the future should be known as genuine by whether or not the claims actually come true. If they don't come true then the individual is a false prophet, discussion over.(Who wants to argue that point with God?) Now did Oral Roberts claim any of the above-referenced predictions? Did every single one come true? For example, did he claim (if not prove to me otherwise) that God would provide him the means of curing cancer?(which was widely reported in the news, not just in a google search) If so, why hasn't that been done? And if it hasn't been done, why in the world would you associate with someone who God says is a false prophet? And as for your continued references to what good Mr. Roberts is doing (which I applaud), didn't Jesus tell those who asked him (paraphrase) "didn't we do all these things in your name" - "depart from me, I never knew you?"
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Post by orusisko on Mar 11, 2006 14:06:17 GMT -5
Do I agree with everything O. Roberts did, not necessarily. I am not making a case for this man , what I am saying is that he is often judged for what is considered to be his worst moments, while his best moments are overlooked.
Yes, he claimed that God told him to research to find a cure for cancer, and he did try, and he failed. Does that alone make him a false prophet? Mind you, it's not over until it is over.
He also claimed God told him to build a university. This he did, and today it still stands.
As for my post on him raising the money in time, I meant that he raised the money, but not in time. Forgive me for that error, I can see why it caused confusion. However, not too get too theological, but when God told Adam and Eve they would *surely die* if and when they ate the fruit, was God accused of being a heretic when they walked out of the Garden and later built human society as a whole. ALL that to say that man knows not the ways of God, so lets not get too technical on that or we have all got problems.
As for the reputable resources you used, list a few?
It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
-Roosevelt
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Post by rick on Mar 11, 2006 14:15:50 GMT -5
Do I agree with everything O. ROberts did, not necasarily. I am not making a case for this man , what I am saying is that he is often judged for what is considered to be his worst moments, while his best moments are overlooked. Yes, he claimed that God told him to research to find a cure for cancer, and he did try, and he failed. DOes that alone make him a false prophet? Mind you, it's not over until it is over. He also claimed God told him to build a university. This he did, and today it still stands. As for my post on him raising the money in time, I meant that he raised the money, but not in time. Forgive me for that error, I can see why it caused confusion. However, not too get too theological, but when God told Adam and Eve they would *surely die* if and when they ate the fruit, was God accused of being a heretic when they walked out of the Garden and later built human society as a whole. ALL that to say that man knows not the ways of God, so lets not get too technical on that or we have all got problems. As for the reputable resources you used, list a few? Respond intelligently to my post and I will provide you with anything you want. You did not address the issues I raised. And yes, if God told him specifically that he should have the money raised by a date certain or he will surely die, and if it wasn't raised by him by that date and he did not surely die, then if you claim well it happened eventually but not by that date so he is not really a false prophet(cut him some slack please), you make God out to be a liar. Not all things that are good are done by good folks. All things that are good come from God, but God often uses what is evil and what comes from evil people to work out good in the world.
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Post by rick on Mar 11, 2006 14:27:41 GMT -5
blah, blah, blah. Yes you've lost the argument. Or should I say quit the argument. From your spelling and the way you choose to do your due diligence, I first of all don't know how you made it in to the Valpo law school and secondly, I sure would not want you defending me or doing any legal work for me or anyone I care about.
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Post by orusisko on Mar 11, 2006 14:29:30 GMT -5
Okay, please excuse me if I came out attacking. I really would like to hold a serious discussion on this, and I will use factual data to back up my position and ask that you do the same, and we'll both walk away more intelligible for it.
The actual claim that everybody keeps pointing to can be found at *The Chrisitian research Institute* "Individuals who attended a morning chapel service in April of 1986 stated that Roberts inĀformed those in attendance that God told him he would die if he did not succeed in sending out missionaries by the end of 1986."
He in fact raised the money and did send out missionaries by the end of that year, and has sent out hundreds every year since that date. for reference purposes use reference number STATEMENT DR170 when locating this subject matter.
I thought I answered your question, please ask if you need more than this to prove that his statements were twisted. As for your statement, please supply me with the credible resources you referred to.
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Post by orusisko on Mar 11, 2006 14:36:27 GMT -5
Just to clear it up a little, I had a late night and am typing very fast as I watch the *Memphis-UAB* match up, so excuse the spelling. As for VU law, I passed it up because Georgetown made me a better offer and is a better school. I still like VU, but you seem to only make sporadic statements and never back your claims.
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Post by rick on Mar 11, 2006 14:55:12 GMT -5
Okay, please excuse me if I came out attacking. I really would like to hold a serious discussion on this, and I will use factual data to back up my position and ask that you do the same, and we'll both walk away more intelligible for it. The actual claim that everybody keeps pointing to can be found at *The Chrisitian research Institute* "Individuals who attended a morning chapel service in April of 1986 stated that Roberts inĀformed those in attendance that God told him he would die if he did not succeed in sending out missionaries by the end of 1986." He in fact raised the money and did send out missionaries by the end of that year, and has sent out hundreds every year since that date. for reference purposes use reference number STATEMENT DR170 when locating this subject matter. I thought I answered your question, please ask if you need more than this to prove that his statements were twisted. As for your statement, please supply me with the credible resources you referred to. Let me make a suggestion as to how you can respond to an argument which as of now you have failed to do in any sufficient manner: 1. Copy my entire post onto your reply page. 2. Take each segment/statement made by me and bold or italicize it to distinguish it from your own response which should be in normal text. 3. Answer any questions I posed with sufficient support and evidence if you know the answer. If not, say that you don't know the answer to the question but that (if you give a damn) you will do your best to look it up so that the question can be adequately answered. 4. If something I said was false, prove it with adequate documentation. 5. Go back to the original posts I made seeking whether or not the information provided was true and do the same with each claim, item-by-item. Then I will read your reply and respond accordingly. Until then, I will not take seriously any of your insertions of inappropriate quotes or other drivel placed here to divert attention from the fact that you did not really respond to my questions. If you really care about finding the truth about Oral Roberts and decide to take the time necessary to provide adequate proof that the claims made are not false, then in response I will also begin to research the matter more deeply and hopefully we both can at least come to the conclusion that there are no facts in dispute. (Summary judgement) How we choose to interpret those facts after we have sorted out fact from fiction will of course be our own choice.
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