srt4driver
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GO MILWAUKEE PANTHERS!
Posts: 71
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Post by srt4driver on Sept 12, 2006 2:10:01 GMT -5
I am aware of that....however, since it lists Oral Roberts as a tourney runnerup and since most of the members were in the Mid-Con until 6 or 7 years ago...I'd say you are in error....the Horizon League is a name change to an almost totally different conference before the Mid-Con members entered...either that or they are taking the history of another conference as their own.... So you're saying the Midwestern Collegiate Conference of, say, 1998 or 2000, with these members: 1. Butler 2. Detroit 3. Loyola 4. Milwaukee 5. UIC 6. UWGB 7. Cleveland St. 8. Wright St. ... is not the same conference as the 2006 Horizon League? I'm not sure how an evolving conference membership makes it a different conference. Otherwise many BCS conferences would have "predecessors" too, but nobody actually thinks that about them. And its been more like 12 or 13 years since those 5 former Mid-Con schools jumped to the league, not 6 or 7. BTW, using your logic, wouldn't the current Mid-Con also be considered a "different" conference then its predecessor, the pre-'94 Mid-Con?
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Post by rlh on Sept 12, 2006 8:36:37 GMT -5
What part of before the Mid-Con members entered did you not understand....? and yes the Mid-Con is certainly a different conference than it was before most of the members left for the MCC or whatever it was called.
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Post by crusaderjoe on Sept 12, 2006 8:57:52 GMT -5
Whether the current HL in fact has a 'predecessor' is dependent upon whether one views the original Midwestern Cities Conference as being defunct. If the original conference formed in the late 70's is viewed as defunct, then that conference would be the predecessor to the MCC. If you take the position that the original six member conference was never defunct, but rather only changed its name, then the MCC has no predecessor, which in turn means that the current HL has no predecessor. I think the HL is taking the position that the original conference was never defunct--only its name and members were changed. That's my take on this point at least.
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Post by stlvufan on Sept 12, 2006 11:54:58 GMT -5
Crusaderjoe, you should update your sig:
"NCAA Appearances: 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2004 NIT Appearances: 1995, 2003"
The one in 1995 was preseason NIT, prior to the 1995-1996 season.
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Post by chucka on Sept 12, 2006 12:23:54 GMT -5
Whether the current HL in fact has a 'predecessor' is dependent upon whether one views the original Midwestern Cities Conference as being defunct. If the original conference formed in the late 70's is viewed as defunct, then that conference would be the predecessor to the MCC. If you take the position that the original six member conference was never defunct, but rather only changed its name, then the MCC has no predecessor, which in turn means that the current HL has no predecessor. I think the HL is taking the position that the original conference was never defunct--only its name and members were changed. That's my take on this point at least. Crusaderjoe you are correct in your assessment of one's view. The HL has the position that the original conference was never defunct, but changed names. Being defunct, most of know, means that an organization disbands, charters are no longer in effect and there is no longer an entity. This was not true of the Midwestern City 6. They just decided to change the name to Midwestern City Conference, which still wasn't as metropolitan as the powers-that-be wanted. So they updated it to Midwestern Collegiate Conference, which I still like. The reason for the change to the Horizon League was that, since we weren't a dominant league standing on our own, we needed to define ourselves. So they wanted a name to start the league on its way to stand out from other leagues that started with the letter "M". Those others in particular of course were all in the midwest. The Great Midwest Conference before it became Conference USA; the Mid-Continent Conference, which the media also called the MCC; the Mid-American Conference; and the Missouri Valley Conference.
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Post by valpo89 on Sept 12, 2006 13:27:15 GMT -5
The Mid-Con used to urge all media to never use the acronym MCC when referring to the Mid-Con for that very reason - confusion with the Midwestern Collegiate Conference. It was an especially sore point in 1994-95, the first season when the six former Mid-Con schools jumped ship.
It doesn't mean anything to the kids playing now, but those of us who were around back then (and former players from that era) still like to see VU beat UW-GB, UW-M, UIC, Loyola, Wright State and Cleveland State. And the thinking was the Ohio schools led the charge to bolt, because prior to that the Mid-Con was ready to add Butler, Loyola and maybe Evansville or whoever was available to make a 12-team league. So when the plug was pulled, everyone was shocked and if you ask a guy like Jon Steinbrecher, he's probably still bitter.
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Post by crusaderjoe on Sept 12, 2006 17:42:06 GMT -5
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Post by chucka on Sept 13, 2006 11:55:45 GMT -5
....And the thinking was the Ohio schools led the charge to bolt, because prior to that the Mid-Con was ready to add Butler, Loyola and maybe Evansville or whoever was available to make a 12-team league. So when the plug was pulled, everyone was shocked and if you ask a guy like Jon Steinbrecher, he's probably still bitter. Are you kidding me? The MCC was a league that was head and shoulders above the Mid-Con, even at that time. Xavier was beginning to emerge as the standard bearer of the league and they had St. Louis, Dayton, Marquette and Evansville. You mean to tell me that Butler and EU was considering moving to a lower level conference? I find that very hard to believe. What kind of power did the Ohio schools have to initiate this, if it's true?
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Post by rlh on Sept 13, 2006 14:12:38 GMT -5
No one knows for sure who led the defection, but the story we were given was that Wright State and Cleveland State led the exodus from the Mid-Con. I was told by a VU administrator that the Wright State President had supposedly stated that they would not be in the new conference if Valpo was asked to come too....whether that was true or not, I can't say. I have no reason to doubt the person who told me, who should have known....in addition, the Mid-Con reportedly had a meeting the previous week to discuss expanding the conference to 12 teams and no mention was made to VU or Western Illinois about anyone leaving. Understandedly, the two schools felt betrayed. I'm very happy, as everyone else is, that the misunderstandings have been overcome and no longer exist.
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Post by Valpower on Sept 13, 2006 15:32:53 GMT -5
....And the thinking was the Ohio schools led the charge to bolt, because prior to that the Mid-Con was ready to add Butler, Loyola and maybe Evansville or whoever was available to make a 12-team league. So when the plug was pulled, everyone was shocked and if you ask a guy like Jon Steinbrecher, he's probably still bitter. Are you kidding me? The MCC was a league that was head and shoulders above the Mid-Con, even at that time. Xavier was beginning to emerge as the standard bearer of the league and they had St. Louis, Dayton, Marquette and Evansville. You mean to tell me that Butler and EU was considering moving to a lower level conference? I find that very hard to believe. What kind of power did the Ohio schools have to initiate this, if it's true? ChuckA, please don't talk about The Defection. It is the duty of many religiously-affiliated private school fans to believe in conspiratorial forces acting to keep them down. Whether it's the ORU faithful believing their disappearance into the NAIA ranks for NCAA violations was the result of persecution or the Loyola legion believing that the HL tourney format is designed to exclude them from an NCAA berth, it must be done. Don't try to stop us.
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srt4driver
Recruit
GO MILWAUKEE PANTHERS!
Posts: 71
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Post by srt4driver on Sept 13, 2006 16:50:33 GMT -5
haha, so true
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Post by chucka on Sept 14, 2006 11:51:32 GMT -5
ChuckA, please don't talk about The Defection. It is the duty of many religiously-affiliated private school fans to believe in conspiratorial forces acting to keep them down. Whether it's the ORU faithful believing their disappearance into the NAIA ranks for NCAA violations was the result of persecution or the Loyola legion believing that the HL tourney format is designed to exclude them from an NCAA berth, it must be done. Don't try to stop us. I hear ya. The Defection almost ruined the Mid-Con. Look at it this way though...if the D6 (Defecting Six) hadn't left, maybe Valpo doesn't have those 5 straight and 7 overall NCAA tourney appearances. Remember Romans 8:28, "...and we know that all things work together for the good...."
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Post by valpo89 on Sept 14, 2006 12:43:20 GMT -5
Chucka - you are exactly right on that point. There's no way VU makes the NCAA Tournament as many times if it was in the Midwestern Collegiate, or if the six schools hadn't left. When your biggest competition during the first few years of that run was Youngstown and Western Illinois, Valpo SHOULD have been winning. I think if things had remained the same or if VU had left the Mid-Con, Valpo would probably have, at the very most, 3 NCAA appearances.
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Post by valpotx on Sept 14, 2006 13:10:58 GMT -5
I would imagine in the years with Bryce Drew and those teams that we would have a few NCAA's still under our belt, regardless of those teams leaving. Our 2001-2002 team would have won as well, just to name a few. Also, we won 6 straight tournaments starting with the 1995 one. Did we not go to the NCAA's in 1995, and if not, why?
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Post by crusaderjoe on Sept 14, 2006 13:21:44 GMT -5
In 1995, the "new" Mid-Con had no automatic berth to the NCAA tournament, IIRC--and we weren't going to get an at-large. I was hoping to see at least a post season NIT berth that year but that was not to come either.
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