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Post by dylanrocks on Sept 14, 2010 15:53:39 GMT -5
No question, wh. You did the league proud and I was pulling for you every step of the way.
I believe Wright State turned down the chance to play in either the CBI or CIT each of the last three seasons. This means, if memory serves, that the H League was relegated to two, three and two postseason berths the last three years. That's simply not enough.
I cringe when I see that the Colonial has accepted four, five and six berths the last three years. That's how you advance the reputation and profile of a league.
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Post by rlh on Sept 14, 2010 16:33:35 GMT -5
So far, Wright State has said NCAA or the NIT or nothing. I think that's a blown opportunity for them and conversely for the league
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Post by bigdwsu on Sept 14, 2010 19:23:02 GMT -5
And when that postseason invitation comes -- whether it be from the CBI or CIT -- it's important that the program seize the moment and accept whatever it is that's offered. You're preaching to the choir over here. As you know, we accepted a bid to the CBI in our first year and beat Pac 10 Washington in the first game. IMO the group that needs to get on board is Wright State. They passed up 2 opportunities for post season play in the past 2 seasons. That's 2 missed opportunities for the HL to showcase its teams in the post season. That is complete bull****. Those fake tournaments didn't "showcase" anything. No one outside of the schools participating even knew who was in them.
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Post by fwalum on Sept 14, 2010 20:22:35 GMT -5
You're preaching to the choir over here. As you know, we accepted a bid to the CBI in our first year and beat Pac 10 Washington in the first game. IMO the group that needs to get on board is Wright State. They passed up 2 opportunities for post season play in the past 2 seasons. That's 2 missed opportunities for the HL to showcase its teams in the post season. That is complete bull****. Those fake tournaments didn't "showcase" anything. No one outside of the schools participating even knew who was in them. Sorry, have to agree that Wright State has not taken advantage of some opportunities. Any time a Horizon League team has the opportunity to play in a tournament opposite a BCS conference team or any other conference of similar or higher standing, they ought to participate. You are correct in one thing, Washington sure knew who VU was after we beat them on their home floor... even if no one else knew.
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Post by dylanrocks on Sept 15, 2010 10:14:37 GMT -5
The goal for all of us every year should be at minimum the NIT. But if you haven't been to at least that level in three or more years, are you in a position to be choosy? If you're starving, are you going to turn down the table leavings? Here are the postseason RPI ratings per teamrankings.com/ncaab: 12, Horizon 13, CAA 14, WCC Here are the number of postseason representatives from each conference: CAA -- 6 WCC -- 4 Horizon -- 2 ... and the lede from each of the league's previews in the nationallly published Sporting News College Basketball Yearbook: "There is no such thing as a 'down year' for the Colonial Athletic Association. In fact, it just keeps getting better. "Last season, a CAA-record six teams earned berths in the postseason, eclipsing the previous high of five set the year before. ... That's saying something." "For the past 10 seasons, Gonzaga has been the most consistent team in the West Coast Conference in terms of winning. But for the past two years, Saint Mary's has been the darling of the WCC and picked up many fans in the process." "After coming within a miracle shot of producing the national champion, the Horizon League is out to prove it's not a one-team wonder ... "Even though the league produced five teams with at least 20 victories for the first time, the conference could only get (Green Bay) into the College Basketball Invitational last year as its second postseason team."
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Post by stlvufan on Sept 15, 2010 10:27:07 GMT -5
You're preaching to the choir over here. As you know, we accepted a bid to the CBI in our first year and beat Pac 10 Washington in the first game. IMO the group that needs to get on board is Wright State. They passed up 2 opportunities for post season play in the past 2 seasons. That's 2 missed opportunities for the HL to showcase its teams in the post season. That is complete bull****. Those fake tournaments didn't "showcase" anything. No one outside of the schools participating even knew who was in them. You're confusing the CBI and CIT with things like the "Legends Classic" or the "Las Vegas Shootout". Those are fake tournaments. You know they are fake tournaments because the 2nd and succeeding rounds are locked in regardless of first round results. If you want to be all snooty with your "anything but the NCAA or NIT is beneath us", be my guest. Just don't expect any love or respect for it.
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Post by valporun on Sept 15, 2010 13:01:12 GMT -5
That is complete bull****. Those fake tournaments didn't "showcase" anything. No one outside of the schools participating even knew who was in them. You're confusing the CBI and CIT with things like the "Legends Classic" or the "Las Vegas Shootout". Those are fake tournaments. You know they are fake tournaments because the 2nd and succeeding rounds are locked in regardless of first round results. If you want to be all snooty with your "anything but the NCAA or NIT is beneath us", be my guest. Just don't expect any love or respect for it. While the CBI and CIT are legit tournaments, about the only people who pay attention to who is playing in them are the schools participating, and their fans and alums, other than that, you have to do a bit of digging to find out who made it into those tourneys, and where they are playing. ESPN recognized those two lower tourneys during March Madness in their scoreboard function on their website, so I would say they are rather legit tourneys to get that kind of recognition. Cleveland St. is only looking at the CBS or ESPN exposure that the NCAA or NIT automatically provides. When the CBI or CIT get a tv contract, whether on a PPV setting or a Versus/CBS or FOX College Sports contract, then CSU might give those tourneys a chance. For now they just want to say "HEY LOOK!! WE MADE IT TO CBS OR ESPN!!" I agree with other Valpo fans, take the postseason exposure, however you can get it. Use it for recruiting because those recruits want to be playing well into March, even if they have to work really hard to make it to CBS or ESPN.
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jack
Recruit
Posts: 55
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Post by jack on Sept 15, 2010 13:24:31 GMT -5
I'm a firm believer in, you learn something with each passing game. There's a reason your not getting to the NIT or NCAA tournaments. I don't believe there are any "bad" games, if the opponent is formiable, and you come ready to play, and learn. You may wind up playing in one of the so called "fake" tournaments, only to find, the next year, your apponent, and you, have improved to the point of making one of the big tournaments, and ironically, will face each other again. And now, you know a little more about them, and their program....recruiting aside, I say, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Be thankful for what could be a golden opportunity. And to expand on that, if basketball, and any organized sport at this level, is to also teach these young adults some life lessons, what lesson are you teaching them when you deny the the opportunity to possibly improve?
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Post by stlvufan on Sept 15, 2010 19:57:35 GMT -5
Cleveland St. is only looking at the CBS or ESPN exposure that the NCAA or NIT automatically provides. I think you mean Wright State.
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Post by valporun on Sept 16, 2010 1:24:36 GMT -5
Stl,
You're right. I did mean Wright St. I typed Cleveland St. because I was upset with the talk that the two lesser-known tourneys are "fake". WSU does need to accept whatever exposure they can get. I mean how many out-of-state recruits have ever heard of Wright St. before they get a letter in the mail from the coaching staff or school?
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Post by blackpantheruwm on Sept 16, 2010 10:53:06 GMT -5
The future of the league appears to be in the Dakota's...not to take anything away from ORU or Oakland. Both Dakota schools have been very successful since moving to D-1 in pretty much every sport and they will only build on that. I hope you're not including SDSU in that; men's basketball hasn't been to .500 since you joined D-I. In fact, in our (Milwaukee) worst season since the '90's, we pasted you by 17 points despite going 8-22 the rest of the 2006-07 season. Sorry to lash out; your athletic department is holding us to completing that awful 2-for-2 deal that our former associate AD signed, of which that 06-07 game was a part. We were all prepared to take a buy game from Kentucky until we got the call that we had to go to Brookings. I do hear that Frost Arena is a pretty cool old gym, and I look forward to visiting it in December. I just hope it's warmer than our trip last year to Fargo.
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Post by blackpantheruwm on Sept 16, 2010 11:19:15 GMT -5
Attendance figures from CBI championship games:
7337 9014 8455
8029 12000 12000 (that's capacity at UTEP's Don Haskins Center)
4386 5612
It seems like Tulsa, Bradley, UTEP and Oregon State could sell the game to their fans; Saint Louis and VCU couldn't. If you think it's beneath you, and don't push for attendance, people aren't going to show. If you really want that banner, want the game to be epic, the people you ask to take it seriously will do so.
I guess, if we played in the CBI title series, I'd want the Panthers to sell out the Cell; we've done it before, although our NIT past has shown we didn't market well.
But the idea of a CBI title game even in the Klotsche Center sounds like a party. If we don't make the NCAA or NIT, I'm all for playing in one of these tournaments.
The two CIT title games:
ODU over Bradley: 8,118 Missouri State over Pacific: 6,205
When it all comes down to it, you ask yourself this: is the banner and possible postseason championship worth the price of admission?
Wright State said no. Most of the other schools said yes. And to be honest, just the money made from the gate alone could make the school money.
My guess is WSU didn't feel they could sell the tournament to their fans. I don't think that's the case; I feel like the Raiders would get at least 5,000 for their games in one of these tournaments, and perhaps 7,000 or more for title games.
Let's be completely frank and honest. Wright State has two conference championships, one in the Mid-Con and one in the Horizon League. Those titles coincided with NCAA tournament appearances. In the rest of the university's history, they didn't make anything (in D-I; we all know how good WSU was in D-II). WSU has never been to the NIT.
Meanwhile, schools with tons of more history and reputation: Old Dominion, Bradley, Tulsa, and a slew of other schools deemed postseason play in the CBI or CIT viable. They went for it, and they reaped the rewards. Would ODU give up a CBI title to be in the NCAA Tournament that year? Absolutely. But to say they gained nothing from the CBI championship is preposterous. How many schools can say they've won a postseason championship?
To me, Wright State turning it down had nothing to do with the tournament and had everything to do with money. No return on the investment? No thanks.
These tournaments are fledgling; to call them garbage when they're still very much in their infancy is preposterous, especially when both of them do fairly well at the gate.
Count Milwaukee among the schools that would play in these tournaments if the NCAA and NIT passed up.
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Post by dylanrocks on Sept 16, 2010 12:44:05 GMT -5
Nice post, BP. These games are a chance for emerging players to play, developing coaches to coach and victory-starved fans to cheer. In addition, it's an awesome reward for the seniors for all the time they've devoted to your program. I think if you polled any locker room, 100 percent of the players would say they would rather play than not play. In fact, other than time away from class, I really can't see any downside to the CBI or CIT for a program at our level.
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Post by stlvufan on Sept 16, 2010 12:56:55 GMT -5
I will say one thing in defense of WSU: The CBI pretty much requires you to sell out if you host (they don't, but they'll require a take that will make you wish you'd sold out the place). I don't know if the CIT has the same requirement or not.
That said, Valpo only declined to host (that is if we were asked to). We did of course travel all the way to Washington, and everybody here remembers what happened (and would just as soon forget what happened down in Houston a couple of days later). If WSU can't see an upside to hosting, that's fine. But stop being so stuck up about participating.
Now, if you truly deserved an NIT bid and were denied, then I could see not wanting to settle for a lesser tournament. I'm not sure that's a good decision, but that's a specific case and I could see an argument or two that could be made for declining. However, I don't recall WSU using that particular argument.
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Post by rlh on Sept 16, 2010 13:17:09 GMT -5
I think StLfan hit it on the head...it's another example of WSU thinking they are better than the rest of the league...it's a superiority attitude that has been around even when they were in the Mid-Con way back when...not sure why, but they are what they are....they're not even the most well known school in their city...must drive them crazy.....
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