|
Post by vu72 on Dec 30, 2010 15:28:37 GMT -5
Norris Cole may very well be the best player in the league if it isn't one of the Butler guys or Brandon Wood. As for the best coach, funny how you say its Stevens who just happens to have, according to you, the two best players. Last year was he the best coach? Let's see, he had the two best players this year, plus an NBA lottery pick. Coincidence?? I think the best coach is the one who does the most with the talent provided. The jury is still out on that one until we see who exceeds the pre-season predictions by the largest margin. I've got a lot of respect for both Cole and Waters ... I don't necessarily agree that they're the best player and coach in the league, but they're certainly in the discussion. For vu72 ... it's pretty clear you don't think much of Stevens as a coach. Which HL coaches do you think are better? As for exceeding expectations, you are correct that Stevens has only finished above the preseason prediction one time, winning the league in '08-'09 after being picked 5th. I'm predicting that he'll once again fail to exceed preseason expectations this year. Well, I never said that Stevens wasn't the best coach. I was responding to your proclamation that: without a doubt the best coach in the league is Brad Stevens[/b Stevens did a fantastic job last year and so did his players. I'm simply saying that sometimes a coach does well when he has talent. Homer Drew used to beat Oral Roberts when Bill Self coached there. Now that Kansas killed Valpo does it make Self a better coach than Homer? Your point about Butler going to the title game is a very good and fair one. I just don't think it automatically makes Stevens the best in the League. Waters and Homer are great coaches. We'll see who prevails this year.
|
|
|
Post by wh on Dec 30, 2010 15:44:47 GMT -5
I've got a lot of respect for both Cole and Waters ... I don't necessarily agree that they're the best player and coach in the league, but they're certainly in the discussion. I have a lot of respect for Cole. I have ZERO respect for Waters. Every CSU defensive possession is loaded with borderline dirty play - chest bumping, kneeing, hand checking, elbowing, pushing, and shoving. Waters starts working the refs from first foul call to the last. By the end of the game, they get charged with 25 fouls, but commit 50. Yeah, it's a successful strategy, but not an admirable one.
|
|
|
Post by dcvalpo on Dec 30, 2010 15:49:27 GMT -5
Recruiting is a huge part of college coaching these days...Stevens has the best players because he is the best recruiter, which is part of what makes him the best coach.
|
|
|
Post by valpofan56 on Dec 30, 2010 15:55:15 GMT -5
Fair points, 72. Obviously it takes more than just being a good coach to win games. I don't care if you put Mike Krzyewski in place as the coach of Centenary they probably would still lose almost all of their games. It was probably bad wording on my part to say "without a doubt," but for me it's pretty clear. To take a Butler team with their level of overall talent to the National Championship game settles the case for me. You could also make the case, in regards to their "big 3" last year, that at least 2 of the 3 developed into great players under Steven's tutelage. Howard was the only one of the 3 that was very highly regarded coming in to college.
|
|
|
Post by milanmiracle on Dec 30, 2010 17:06:36 GMT -5
I've always been of the opinion that it's really hard to judge coaches based only on watching them during games. I also think it would be premature to call Stevens the best coach in the league, simply because he's so young and doesn't have the long-time body of work to judge. He took over a great thing, and must be given credit for not screwing it up or in fact making it a better program. I just have trouble giving too much credit to anyone under 40 years old. Let's not forget that Coach Stevens took over a ready made team his first year and they were very successful. Then the year after that Butler had a complete roster makeover and they still won the league dispite being picked to be middle of the pack. Sure he kept a good thing going, but I think it's much more than that.
|
|
|
Post by valporun on Dec 30, 2010 17:44:43 GMT -5
The other thing that helps Brad Stevens with his coaching...consistent roster of four year players. With the exception of Gordon Hayward, players stay at Butler all four years. They don't regularly come in, have a big freshman year, and then follow the money to the NBA, or have academic or social activity issues that are plastered all over the papers and ESPN. Stevens seems to look for the guys that will learn to fill the role they are meant to play in his offense, not just come in expecting to be #1, and get all the playing time and scoring that they want. If that's the case, I think Matt Howard would have left Butler when the previous coach left, instead of sticking around to help Brad Stevens and the Bulldogs get to where they are now.
|
|
|
Post by crusaderjoe on Dec 30, 2010 18:55:36 GMT -5
I've always been of the opinion that it's really hard to judge coaches based only on watching them during games. I also think it would be premature to call Stevens the best coach in the league, simply because he's so young and doesn't have the long-time body of work to judge. He took over a great thing, and must be given credit for not screwing it up or in fact making it a better program. I just have trouble giving too much credit to anyone under 40 years old. Not to take anything away from Brad Stevens by any means, and I'm certainly no Butler expert, but I'm still left thinking that in some way, the name Barry Collier should somehow be a part of "Brad Stevens" analysis.
|
|
|
Post by zvillehaze on Dec 30, 2010 20:49:00 GMT -5
I've got a lot of respect for both Cole and Waters ... I don't necessarily agree that they're the best player and coach in the league, but they're certainly in the discussion. For vu72 ... it's pretty clear you don't think much of Stevens as a coach. Which HL coaches do you think are better? As for exceeding expectations, you are correct that Stevens has only finished above the preseason prediction one time, winning the league in '08-'09 after being picked 5th. I'm predicting that he'll once again fail to exceed preseason expectations this year. Well, I never said that Stevens wasn't the best coach. I was responding to your proclamation that: without a doubt the best coach in the league is Brad Stevens[/b Stevens did a fantastic job last year and so did his players. I'm simply saying that sometimes a coach does well when he has talent. Homer Drew used to beat Oral Roberts when Bill Self coached there. Now that Kansas killed Valpo does it make Self a better coach than Homer? Your point about Butler going to the title game is a very good and fair one. I just don't think it automatically makes Stevens the best in the League. Waters and Homer are great coaches. We'll see who prevails this year. I didn't make that proclamation and said nothing about Butler going to the title game. All I did was admit that Stevens only met expectations last year ... picked to win the league and won the league. Valpo, on the other hand, secured the #7 seed after being picked to finish 8th. Advantage Homer. Congrats.
|
|
|
Post by wh on Dec 30, 2010 21:33:52 GMT -5
Well, I never said that Stevens wasn't the best coach. I was responding to your proclamation that: without a doubt the best coach in the league is Brad Stevens[/b Stevens did a fantastic job last year and so did his players. I'm simply saying that sometimes a coach does well when he has talent. Homer Drew used to beat Oral Roberts when Bill Self coached there. Now that Kansas killed Valpo does it make Self a better coach than Homer? Your point about Butler going to the title game is a very good and fair one. I just don't think it automatically makes Stevens the best in the League. Waters and Homer are great coaches. We'll see who prevails this year. I didn't make that proclamation and said nothing about Butler going to the title game. All I did was admit that Stevens only met expectations last year ... picked to win the league and won the league. Valpo, on the other hand, secured the #7 seed after being picked to finish 8th. Advantage Homer. Congrats. Actually, we were picked to finish anywhere from 8th to 10th, depending on the poll. We finished league play tied for 4th. We were seeded 6th, not 7th in the tournament. I know you and '72 are just doing some innocent jousting, but last year was a pretty amazing turnaround from a disastrous season the year before, and one that no one predicted. This year should be better yet, and next season will probably be better than this one. I think that's a pretty good showing for only our 4th season in the conference.
|
|
|
Post by vu72 on Dec 30, 2010 22:05:01 GMT -5
You know 'haze, I may have attributed you comments to 56 who, I believe did say it. I'm confused! Anyway, I'm "innocent" enough concerning the whole thing!
As for wh's comment that next year will probably be better than this one, that is where I see a problem. We lose Cory, Howard, Mike and almost certainly Brandon. How do we replace three starters, our two top scorers, our best defender and a solid contributor off the bench?
Well we do get Tommy back and so far add Richie Edward. With Brandon back we have a chance to be better but I still think this is our year, one way or another.
|
|
|
Post by zvillehaze on Dec 30, 2010 22:37:52 GMT -5
I was wrong on Valpo's seeding for last year ... wh is correct.
As usual, we're all partial to our own guys ... nothing wrong with that. Hard to argue with Homer's success (and as I've said before, I've known him for 30 years and really like him) and I think Waters has done a great job reviving the CSU program. Whether you like his style or not, his teams compete as hard as anyone in the league. With that said, I'm thrilled that Stevens is at Butler and wouldn't trade him for anyone in the league.
|
|
|
Post by wh on Dec 30, 2010 22:39:34 GMT -5
I would be very surprised if we lose Brandon. IMO he is going to need another year of seasoning if he hopes to make it in the NBA. Assuming we don't for sake of argument, of course Cory and Howard will be big losses. That said, as good as Kevin has been this early in his collegiate career, I think he could be a monster player for us next year and the year after. I also predict stardom for Rowdy over the next two years. Erik will be better. Matt will be better. We also never know what surprises Homer may come up with. Whoever heard of Kevin a year ago at this time? We should be good for some time to come. How good only time will tell.
|
|
|
Post by agibson on Jan 9, 2011 16:47:19 GMT -5
I'll get on board if we win 4 of the next 5 games. My guess is 3-2 at best,but more likely 2-3. Go Valpo! Winning four's going to be tough, and would indeed begin to feel like something a bit special. I think we have a reasonable shot at getting three games out of those five. And, that this is consistent with a solid, top-three in the HL, type of season. Well, 2-3's not a bad start to that! Getting 4-5 if still going to be very difficult.
|
|
|
Post by jerome1 on Jan 10, 2011 10:06:16 GMT -5
I'll get on board if we win 4 of the next 5 games. My guess is 3-2 at best,but more likely 2-3. Go Valpo! You know what. I think this team is turning a corner. I believe we can beat Wright State and Detroit on the road. The Crusaders have actually accomplished this feat the first year Valpo played in the Horizon League. It was a great start to the beginning of the HL for Valpo. This team might even make some free throws in the stretch to win one of these games. Wouldn't that be unbelievable! From my experience when a team gets better at free throws at the end of games it's not because they use different players who have hit free throws in the past but it's because the players that have poor free throw percentages dedicate their extra time to free throws and get better at it. If you shoot so many free throws that your body actually memorizes the motion then it becomes automatic in game situations. No matter what part of the game you take your free throws.
|
|
|
Post by valpo89 on Jan 10, 2011 10:31:18 GMT -5
If you shoot so many free throws that your body actually memorizes the motion then it becomes automatic in game situations. The problem isn't necessarily lack of practice. None of the players use proper form on their free throws. If you practice bad form, it's going to be bad in the game. They need to try a real, Valpo High-style free throw. They need someone to teach it to them. It's not that difficult, but a lot of them would have to swallow their pride and try something new as a college player, and that's not likely to happen. Brandon Wood is probably the best pure shooter on the team, but his form looked TERRIBLE when he bricked those 2-3 shots in the last minute. Buggs is even worse, Cory isn't much better. Kevin takes about 2/3rds of a second to shoot after the ref hands him the ball. They all need a free throw lesson from an expert who knows HOW to teach the Valpo free throw method.
|
|