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Post by rick on Jan 5, 2007 8:36:09 GMT -5
I couldn't agree with you more. It's just that you and rlh don't get how I choose to make that point. Both of your sentiments and reactions toward the use of the word C-U-N-T is the same reaction most people should have, except for, in my opinion, a few fringe, radical feminists,(and their male counterpart girlymen, aka professors) who have taken over at Valpo University and held it hostage to the point where everyone, including a cowardly and emasculated administration, is afraid that they might be viewed as being for violence against women if they criticize these hairy-legged feminazis for putting on this smegma-play. Your reactions are making my points for me. Good job!
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Post by rick on Jan 5, 2007 8:46:38 GMT -5
Two responses: 1. The wording was intentional to make a point. 2. I agree that the use of that language is vulgar but it is acceptable on the Valparaiso University campus and is something that someone who wants to know what VU is all about should know and consider. If VU thinks it's ok to have this vulgar play for all of its students, then potential students and moms and dads need to have that piece of information in making an informed decision about whether this is the kind of environment in which they want their children to be. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Thanks for making my point for me.
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Post by valporun on Jan 5, 2007 8:57:40 GMT -5
I may have helped make your point, but once you've voiced your opinion..don't carry it out to a point where people get offended or start to see you as the "Cindy Sheehan" of Persistence that you tend to make yourself sound like. This topic should have died after a couple of posts, but you had to carry it too far.
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Post by rick on Jan 5, 2007 9:06:53 GMT -5
I have corresponded with one woman who took a few theology courses at Valpo University and you would not believe what she told me about what kind of liberal, feminist crap they are feeding the students. This is a topic for future discussion. I need to do some more research. No one should be afraid of the truth. The truth is sometimes ugly. People need to know what really goes on at a campus and not just be persuaded by the slick and glossy advertisements. If Valpo University has a Christian mission, where is the objective accountability and scrutiny necessary to give comfort to parents who send their kids there? Do moms and dads know what is being taught in the religion courses? Do moms and dads know that, in my opinion, although the university has perhaps a de jure affiliation with the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod when it is most probable that it has a de facto affiliation(at least in their collective bosoms) with the ELCA, Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, a very liberal wing of the Lutheran church? Some folks don't care one way or the other about these things. But some folks care very much. Let the truth out(the good and bad) and allow people to make up their own minds. But don't put a false facade out there when you know it's false. That is not what a Christian organization/university should be doing. Fine for a secular university.
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Post by rick on Jan 5, 2007 9:07:56 GMT -5
I may have helped make your point, but once you've voiced your opinion..don't carry it out to a point where people get offended or start to see you as the "Cindy Sheehan" of Persistence that you tend to make yourself sound like. This topic should have died after a couple of posts, but you had to carry it too far. This topic will remain alive until the university decides to do the right thing. I'm not letting it die.
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Post by CO_VU_Fan on Jan 5, 2007 9:21:16 GMT -5
I'll have to admit that I didn't like the tone of Rick's signature, but did not make any complaints. I thought it was Rick being Rick, stirring things up, which is not always a bad thing.
I would hope that when my daughter, who is about to turn 3, reaches the age of going off to college, that I've given her the proper guidance to make those decisions to attend such plays on her own. College is a time to explore one's views and learn to adopt and accept apposing views as necessary, and with respect to others. For you to imply that parents need to moniter, suppress and censor what our adult children see and do on campus is an insult to parents everywhere. The time for parental influence on a child's morals and ethics comes long before they attend college. If a parent is expecting their child to "get" their morals and ethics in colege, it is way too late!
How many of us remember friends and acquaintances when we were in college that previously had tight leashes at home? Some of these students could not deal with all of the choices and responsibilities heaped upon them as young adults. Others rebelled, trying to find that line of morality and ethics, sometimes crossing over the line drastically. College is a learning experience, which hopefully shapes the morals, ethics and views that were instilled during childhood.
While I have not seen the play in question, and may or may not find the play distasteful, I would hope that my daughter would make her own decision to attend based on what she learns about the play. And if she attends, that she forms her own opinions on what she liked and disliked about the play.
Censoring this play from our middle and high schools may be appropriate, but censoring from adults in college is not.
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Post by valporun on Jan 5, 2007 9:21:26 GMT -5
Rick, find out from your one woman who she took some of the theology courses from and I could tell you if she's on the complete right track about the department and the professors, as I was a theology major at VU.
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Post by rick on Jan 5, 2007 9:26:49 GMT -5
Rick, find out from your one woman who she took some of the theology courses from and I could tell you if she's on the complete right track about the department and the professors, as I was a theology major at VU. I have been trying to reach her recently but she is no longer on the Lutheran discussion board where I met her. Here initials are S.O. and I can't recall when she attended VU. I'm still trying to find her. You obviously know a lot about the theology department. If you don't mind, I'd like to know your thoughts on the kind of education you received and the strengths and weaknesses of the program. Send a p.m. if you don't want a public discussion.
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Post by rick on Jan 5, 2007 9:34:51 GMT -5
I'll have to admit that I didn't like the tone of Rick's signature, but did not make any complaints. I thought it was Rick being Rick, stirring things up, which is not always a bad thing. I would hope that when my daughter, who is about to turn 3, reaches the age of going off to college, that I've given her the proper guidance to make those decisions to attend such plays on her own. College is a time to explore one's views and learn to adopt and accept apposing views as necessary, and with respect to others. For you to imply that parents need to moniter, suppress and censor what our adult children see and do on campus is an insult to parents everywhere. The time for parental influence on a child's morals and ethics comes long before they attend college. If a parent is expecting their child to "get" their morals and ethics in colege, it is way too late! How many of us remember friends and acquaintances when we were in college that previously had tight leashes at home? Some of these students could not deal with all of the choices and responsibilities heaped upon them as young adults. Others rebelled, trying to find that line of morality and ethics, sometimes crossing over the line drastically. College is a learning experience, which hopefully shapes the morals, ethics and views that were instilled during childhood. While I have not seen the play in question, and may or may not find the play distasteful, I would hope that my daughter would make her own decision to attend based on what she learns about the play. And if she attends, that she forms her own opinions on what she liked and disliked about the play. Censoring this play from our middle and high schools may be appropriate, but censoring from adults in college is not. You couldn't be more wrong.
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Post by valporun on Jan 5, 2007 9:35:01 GMT -5
I'll send you a pm about this...
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Post by rlh on Jan 5, 2007 10:20:45 GMT -5
Rick: It must be a terrible burden to always be right and the rest of us wrong. How do you manage to put up with us mere mortals? We are in complete awe of your superior intellect and thank your for teaching us what our parents apparently didn't.
You're obvious lack of respect for the rest of us makes me wonder why you bother with us at all...
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Post by rick on Jan 5, 2007 10:24:10 GMT -5
Actually it is not burdensome at all. It takes little effort especially when you are the one I am arguing with. Oh, and speak for yourself.
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Post by valpo04 on Jan 5, 2007 15:55:33 GMT -5
What amazes me is that you had no need to bring this up here until the "you suck" argument. Since then, you have forced your opinion about it on everyone here and continue to bring it up... to people who have no power to change it, or frankly, don't care. It is wrong of you to dedicate your signature to this fight. The casual fan, or even the diehards do not need to come here and read about a play that you don't like that contains "homosexuality, masturbation, adult lesbian relationships with teenagers, and sexual activity outside of marriage."
I have given you a board, basically to yourself to vent, fight the liberals, etc. but sexual, obscene or vulgar topics will not be allowed.
I suggest if you feel so strongly about this, that you bring it up to people who 1. care, 2. can address it and stop forcing the issue on people who come here for sports.
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Post by rick on Jan 5, 2007 15:58:36 GMT -5
What amazes me is that you had no need to bring this up here until the "you suck" argument. Since then, you have forced your opinion about it on everyone here and continue to bring it up... to people who have no power to change it, or frankly, don't care. It is wrong of you to dedicate your signature to this fight. The casual fan, or even the diehards do not need to come here and read about a play that you don't like that contains "homosexuality, masturbation, adult lesbian relationships with teenagers, and sexual activity outside of marriage." I have given you a board, basically to yourself to vent, fight the liberals, etc. but sexual, obscene or vulgar topics will not be allowed. I suggest if you feel so strongly about this, that you bring it up to people who 1. care, 2. can address it and stop forcing the issue on people who come here for sports. I'll remove the signature if it makes you happy.
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Post by stlvufan on Jan 6, 2007 3:30:21 GMT -5
Well, I must say I misjudged the original tone that Rick struck when this tagent was initiated. I honestly thought freedom of speech was the paramount concern, along with its partner "anti-censorship".
Honestly, Rick, aren't these two principles dear to you? I could have sworn they were. I have defended you on both grounds more than once here when it may not have been popular to do so. In fact, doesn't the very title of this thread (named by you, no?) speak to this?
I'm actually not anti-censorship myself, but I honestly thought you were. Untill I find the time to educate myself about the play directly, I can't join your crusade, but it is very possible that if I did, I would join you. I guess I'm just surprised that in this whole discussion, the ideals of freedom of speech have been a low priority for you except for your own exercise of them here.
To tell you the truth, your new controversial signature struck me as coming from wanting - desparately perhaps - to pick a fight with someone important enough to uwittingly grant you the ultimate podium from which to promote your position. I say this not to ridicule; far from it. Some of the most coscientious Christians I know have had heartfelt reasons for wanting the same thing (only to be frustrated because no one important was really interested in taking them on). Even I from time to time feel tempted to maneuver myself onto some public witness stand over some issue I feel strongly and deeply about (and I know I don't have to tell you that in the ELCA, such issues are plenty).
There are many reasons why I don't: I'm not smart enough or brave enough, I'm too busy with my own personal life issues (aka a lack of commitmet), etc., but way down on the list is the old saw, "be careful what you wish for."
I don't think you are suffering from a martyr complex, Rick. That's not why I brought this up. I just think its a pitfall to beware of.
You see, after we'd had the argument and everybody had pretty much spoken their piece, THEN you stuck those words in your signature. The only likely reaction at that point, it seem to me, was the one that happened from the admins. I just hope that's not what you were trying to make happen, because I really don't see how that helps your cause - at least here on-line. My sense of the VU fan forum landscape is that most people are through with the topic and greet your sigature with a yawn. Provocative measures here are bound to backfire precisely because we've already had the discussion, and you can't make people talk about it more, just by tweaking them in your signature line.
Anyway, I hope you do find some frutful avenues of approach with the university and the community, and I pray you can remain faithful to your sense of calling on this issue.
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