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Post by wh on Feb 9, 2011 21:17:25 GMT -5
Valpo also had the chance to join the HL when WSU, CSU, UWGB, UWM, and UIC joined the conference in 1994. Valpo had the chance to join the HL in 2001 when YSU joined. Valpo kept turning down the offer. I personally wish you would have joined in 1994 or 2001. We might not have added YSU if we would have added Valpo first. The move to the HL could have and should have been made much sooner, if not for: Dr. William Steinbrecher, Director of Athletics, Valparaiso University, 1979 -2004 ---and his relationship with and allegiance to--- Dr. Jon Steinbrecher, Commissioner, Mid Continent Conference, 1994 - 2003 It's amazing what a regime change can accomplish. |
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Post by oklahoamamick on Feb 9, 2011 22:10:29 GMT -5
Good point!
But would we have made as many NCAA appearances (1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2004) if we made the change to the HL?
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Post by crusadermoe on Feb 9, 2011 22:16:30 GMT -5
I have heard the 1994 "'invitation" to Valpo described quite differently. More on the lines of everyone but Western IL and Valpo met without their knowledge to decide how to move on without those two.
In fact did Jon S. become the new Mid-Con comimissioner AFTERr the departure of the group of 6 from the Mid-Con?
I think the points stands for 2001 that family linkages might have played a role in delaying a VU move to join the Horizon and the 6 who VU felt abandoned them. Glad it all ended well for Valpo. Better late than never. The move was just too logical to prevent and I was a huge advocate for joining the Mid-Con.
But wgdsu and wh MIGHT not be fair in the 1994 comments.
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Post by crusaderjoe on Feb 9, 2011 22:25:28 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I think NKU should be way down on any list of potential Horizon League schools. NKU would be the 3d college team in Cincy metro at best. Why settle for that? In fact, when looking at coverage, X and UC will always garner the most coverage, then UK, Miami, the Ville and even OSU are going to get the attention first. NKU just doesn't carry enough swag especially as a new D1 program in a highly competitive league. The Horizon would be giving NKU way more than NKU would be giving the Horizon. Plus it starts to throw the private-public balance out of whack. No offense to NKU, it's a decent school with decent facilities. Reminds me of Wright State in that respect. And as to coverage, NKU is only 8 miles from downtown Cincy and receives little attention. Valpo is in first place in the Horizon and having the best season of any Chicagoland college hoops team other than ND (if you count that as Chicagoland) and has the Chicago Tribune noticed yet. Why settle for what? How would NKU's situation be different from nearly any other school in the HL? UIC and LUC have to compete for coverage against DePaul and NU in their home market. Milwaukee has to compete for coverage against Marquette and UW in its own market. Who gets more coverage in Dayton, WSU or UD? You think Detroit is not competing for coverage against UM and MSU in eastern Michigan? I'm no HL expert on media coverage but it seems to me that every HL school has to compete with some other major program for a piece of the media, so to paint that brush stroke against NKU exclusively is unfair. They would be no different than nearly any other program in the HL in that regard, IMO. To me it just simply academic that they would have to fight for coverage, since most other HL schools have to as well. |
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Post by valpo84 on Feb 10, 2011 0:09:18 GMT -5
Crusaderjoe, the points you raise about the other markets help with my media point, and without bringing PETA in here to help this stalking horse from being hurt, let me add a couple points.
1. All the examples you provide are existing situations which the Horizon has been dealing with for many years. But, the programs in those cities have also had successes in D1 basketball that make them recognizable and have some value. UIC has had successful Dances, UWM has as well. Loyola won an NCAA championship and had good runs in the late 1980s (Alexander "the Great" Hughes). Detroit had Dick Vitale and some good runs in the 1970s. WSU has been to the Dance. So even though they may be 2d or 3d in their cities' media coverage, they are well known commodities. NKU has no history in D1 or as a media commodity. NKU had some good teams in the mid-90s I recall and that actually was a time that they looked at D1 and that would have been a good time to add them to the Mid-Con. When WSU entered the Mid-Con, they at least had a string of D2 successes but it was also the Mid-Con. "We needed the dues."
2. Which is the bigger point for any expansion -- what does the Horizon League and its members get back for adding any particular team. If NKU brings no immediate marketing impact, brand, dollars or ready-made audience, why add them. NKU benefits a whole lot more from the Horizon than the Horizon benefits from NKU. NKU gets immediate recognition and legitimacy. It benefits for recruiting. NKU would be perfect to join the Summit, and then after 10 years of proven hoops success then it can discuss the Horizon. "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part!"
3. Finally, what does Valpo get from an NKU addition? I'm not sure of anything immediate. A modicum of additional media coverage in Cincy? Recruits' families can see more games? Huge alumni group? Does it raise our profile by being associated with NKU? Do they have a history of service and giving forward to the community? Religiously based institution like Loyola and Detroit? Student-athlete successes in the classroom? Not picking on NKU, but I'm not sure there are readily identifiable benefits for Valpo let alone the Horizon. "Omega House has more social activities than any other fraternity here at Farber, and is far superior to the other houses....we do have more than our fair share of campus leaders...Let the unacceptable candidates worry..."
Again the discussion is hypothetical and is in fun, who would you add to the Horizon. And NKU is an interesting option, but beyond that what are the guidelines/criteria we would all use to measure why a particular school should join this (or Valpo be in this) conference.
I recognize and understand that for NKU it seems like a natural, and on its face adding Cincinnati may be helpful (although WSU has some SW and central Ohio coverage), but there are many other programs that might benefit the Horizon more than NKU. I would even be open to DePaul over NKU, and loading up on Chicago media. Frankly, without football, DePaul is starting to be really out of place in the Big Least and is being tested for recruits by the other Chicago schools, Illinois and others. It is not the school in Chicago anymore like when I was in college. But, the money they receive from being in the BL would be really missed if they dropped down a conference even if it meant being more competitive in the brand name sport.
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Post by theladybook on Feb 10, 2011 0:12:41 GMT -5
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Post by crusaderjoe on Feb 10, 2011 8:34:17 GMT -5
84, I’m not trying to rah rah for NKU, and yes, this hypothetical is an interesting and fun discussion. I'm just trying to understand the logic.
As for well known commodities, yes I do agree, NKU doesn't bring terribly much (although I do think they have a D-II NC in some sport). However, Wright State also had minimal D-I exposure when it joined the Mid-Con. So did Milwaukee. You could make the argument that both WSU and Milwaukee built their D-I resumes in the Mid Con. Did the Mid Con take a step backward when these schools joined the conference? No. Did the HL take a step backward when adding YSU, an already established D-I program? Some say the answer is yes. Why should YSU be a strike against NKU? I’m just trying to understand why a school like NKU could not do the same in the HL as was done by both WSU and Milwaukee in the Mid Con. It’s not like this is unheard of. More recently, NDSU built their D-I resume in the Summit.
Also, while funny, I don't understand your comment about how it was “only the Mid-Con” when WSU joined. 7 of the 10 current HL schools were former members of the Mid-Con so it seems to me that the HL is now a “meet the new boss, same as the old boss” type membership situation. The Mid Con was also a multi NCAA bid conference one year in the early 90’s when expansion was taking place, if I remember correctly, so there were some good teams back then.
All I’ve read is over the last few posts is about how if the HL expands, it needs to go after schools like Depaul UE, SLU etc. Yes, it would be great to have Depaul in the HL. Even Marquette. IMO, the only way there will be movement with these schools is when other conferences begin to crack or break up. At some point, when the Big East implodes or the A-10 contracts, you may very well see schools like Depaul and SLU as conference mates, along with Loyola, Detroit, Butler, Xavier, Dayton and other private schools from the midwest. Valpo should be careful what it wishes for.
Right now, the HL is not strong enough to cherry pick one team from the MVC, Big East or A-10 IMO. Therefore, if it expands, it is resigned to either taking a single school from a conference which has very weak conference member ties like the Summit, or a school like NKU, that is transitioning up IMO. Or, it picks up a school that is kicked out of the A-10, Big East or the MVC. And let’s be real, no one is kicking anyone out of anywhere. The BE learned their lesson with Temple.
We’re just going to have to have to agree to disagree on NKU. I do find this hypothetical expansion talk interesting though.
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Post by bigdwsu on Feb 11, 2011 13:01:16 GMT -5
Right now, the HL is not strong enough to cherry pick one team from the MVC, Big East or A-10 IMO. Therefore, if it expands, it is resigned to either taking a single school from a conference which has very weak conference member ties like the Summit, or a school like NKU, that is transitioning up IMO. crusaderjoe, In your opinion, why should the HL expand, especially since you only think we can add an inferior program? Why make the conference weaker? The reason Valpo jumped from the Summit to the HL is to get into a better conference. Why water it down by bringing in a transitional program like NKU that will be an anchor to the conference? I have stated several times already, the HL is not looking to expand. When we do decide to expand the HL will be looking for several things: 1. a program that will add value to the HL. This will be a team that can help the HL go from a 1-2 bid conference to a consistent 2+ bid conference. 2. a program that fits the geographic make up of the HL. We don't want a program way out of the area that will increase everyone's travel costs. 3. a program that has a similar budget to the rest of the teams in the HL. We don't want a school that cannot afford to be competitive with the rest of the league. 4. a program that is focused on basketball. We learned our lesson when we added YSU. All other sports are important, but basketball is the financial driving force of this league. We don't want or need anymore football schools. |
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Post by cigarboy on Feb 12, 2011 3:32:59 GMT -5
I second everything Big D wrote and I would add that the HL wants a school that is committed long-term to the HL and not looking for a place to park for a few years until something better came along.
About 10 yrs ago Marshall approached the HL about joining and they were a football school that didn't seem like a good fit.
They joined the MAC and them bolted for C-USA a few years later.
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Post by crusaderjoe on Feb 12, 2011 8:33:48 GMT -5
I personally don't think the HL should expand. I never said that they were ever going to expand or are considering expansion. We are talking about hypothetical situations in this thread for fun. I simply think NKU brings more to the table--that is it, nothing more or less.
Just a few points in that regard:
NKU is not a football school. They do not have a varsity football program, at least not now if you visit their athletic site.
If you consider a program that is what, 20 miles away from a major international airport, and that is only 60 miles south of WSU, which is the current most southern terminus point of the league "way out of the area", that is your prerogative. Evansville is farther south than NKU geographically.
For a D-II basketball program, NKU plays in a brand new 9,500 seat arena. Their women's program won the NCAA D-II NC in 2000 and 2008. Take it for what it is worth.
I'm not exactly sure but I believe the NCAA moratorium on schools reclassifying to D-I status ends later this year. If NKU makes the move, you would have to believe their financials would be in order to do so.
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Post by bigdwsu on Feb 12, 2011 10:59:36 GMT -5
For a D-II basketball program, NKU plays in a brand new 9,500 seat arena. Their women's program won the NCAA D-II NC in 2000 and 2008. Take it for what it is worth. I'm not exactly sure but I believe the NCAA moratorium on schools reclassifying to D-I status ends later this year. If NKU makes the move, you would have to believe their financials would be in order to do so. NKU has an arena that seats 9500, but they only average 1614 fans a game. In regards to finances, having enough money to move to D1 doesn't mean they have enough money to compete in the HL. Below is a link to D1 budgets. NKU doesn't spend enough on average to be competitive in the Ohio Valley, Mid-Eastern, or Southwestern Athletic conference let alone the HL. As I stated in a previous post, NKU spends less than 1/2 of the average HL program does on sports. www.bbstate.com/info/schools-budget |
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Post by rlh on Feb 12, 2011 11:52:55 GMT -5
Two questions: 1) Are there actual statements by anyone about expanding? 2) Why did the Horizon ever add YSU? That was a huge slap at Valpo when they added YSU and then paused at the 9 team total. What was the hurry to add a #9? 1. The HL is NOT planning to expand. 2. Valpo was asked to join the HL at least 3 times before they decided to accept. (when WSU, Green Bay, etc joined the HL, when YSU joined the HL, and finally when you did accept the invite) I'm sorry, but this has been stated too many times in this thread, Valpo was NOT invited to joing the Horizon League 3 times before they decided too. As a matter of fact, it has been documented before that they were excluded from the original jump by members of the old Mid-Con when they left the conference. I have had this confirmed by school officials and have no reason to doubt the story. As a matter of fact, Cleveland State and WSU were adamant that Valpo not be admitted. Now whether or not this was because of the fact that Bill Steinbrecher was a founding father of the Mid-Con or exactly what the reasons are, I don't know....but for clarity sake, Valpo was not welcomed until LeCrone and Labarbara got together. |
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Post by wh on Feb 12, 2011 12:21:32 GMT -5
1. The HL is NOT planning to expand. 2. Valpo was asked to join the HL at least 3 times before they decided to accept. (when WSU, Green Bay, etc joined the HL, when YSU joined the HL, and finally when you did accept the invite) I'm sorry, but this has been stated too many times in this thread, Valpo was NOT invited to joing the Horizon League 3 times before they decided too. As a matter of fact, it has been documented before that they were excluded from the original jump by members of the old Mid-Con when they left the conference. I have had this confirmed by school officials and have no reason to doubt the story. As a matter of fact, Cleveland State and WSU were adamant that Valpo not be admitted. Now whether or not this was because of the fact that Bill Steinbrecher was a founding father of the Mid-Con or exactly what the reasons are, I don't know....but for clarity sake, Valpo was not welcomed until LeCrone and Labarbara got together. You're saying one thing - bigd is saying another. I don't know what the truth is, but just think about one thing. If we were invited to join the HL twice before we accepted as bigd claims, that would be very hard for "school officials" to admit that - especially if those school officials were part of the former administration. Just say'in... |
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Post by vu72 on Feb 12, 2011 13:18:40 GMT -5
rlh is correct. Bill clearly had something to do with staying in the Mid-Con, probably for loyalties sake, but at the same time we were being blocked by others.
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Post by bigdwsu on Feb 12, 2011 15:26:36 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but this has been stated too many times in this thread, Valpo was NOT invited to joing the Horizon League 3 times before they decided too. As a matter of fact, it has been documented before that they were excluded from the original jump by members of the old Mid-Con when they left the conference. I have had this confirmed by school officials and have no reason to doubt the story. As a matter of fact, Cleveland State and WSU were adamant that Valpo not be admitted. Now whether or not this was because of the fact that Bill Steinbrecher was a founding father of the Mid-Con or exactly what the reasons are, I don't know....but for clarity sake, Valpo was not welcomed until LeCrone and Labarbara got together. That is BS. WSU did not block Valpo from joining the HL. Our former AD pushed for Valpo to be invited to the HL before YSU was invited. We have always respected Valpo and wanted you in the HL with us. I think Dr. Steinbrecher has misled your fanbase. |
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