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Post by wh on Jan 3, 2011 0:46:34 GMT -5
I think you guys may be confusing talent with execution. I've already watched 2 teams beat us that have a big talent advantage over us - Kansas and Purdue. In all due respect, Butler's talent level is far closer to ours than theirs. More than anything, the Bulldogs are classic overachievers (and I mean that as a sincere compliment). Butler players are disciplined, accept their roles, minimize mistakes, and in general work as hard as any team in college basketball. We are a collective work in progress in all of these areas. Hopefully, we'll be closer to "being all we can be" by the time we play you again. Best of luck going forward. Butler does NOT overachieve. They recruit to play in their system, and when they execute the system they can and do beat more talented teams. Don't look now Stax, but I think you just agreed with me...
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Post by crusaderjoe on Jan 3, 2011 8:43:07 GMT -5
I didn't feel that the game on Saturday was ever really in doubt, save for about 30 seconds in the second half when Valpo cut the lead to five. That doubt was promptly ended by Mr. Hahn relatively quickly.
My $.02--IMO, Butler is anywhere from 14-17 points better than VU at this stage of the season. I pointed to the BSU game a few days ago as a common OOC opponent. Butler beat BSU by 33 at home. VU beat BSU by 17 at home, and still had issues putting them "away". Point differential between respective wins? 16. Point differential on Saturday? 17. I know that correlation does not prove causation, but that's the measuring stick I am using to gauge the gap between programs. I give three points for Matt Kenney, so the range is 14-17 right now.
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Post by zvillehaze on Jan 3, 2011 9:32:07 GMT -5
Butler does NOT overachieve. They recruit to play in their system, and when they execute the system they can and do beat more talented teams. Don't look now Stax, but I think you just agreed with me... I think the point is that Butler executes better and makes fewer mistakes than most teams in college basketball ... that allows them to compete with very talented teams (Duke) and to consistently beat teams that feel they have comparable talent (Valpo). Butler fans (Stax and I) don't equate that with "overachieving" because executing at a high level is the expectation of the coaching staff and something they've done for a while. I guess our view would be that teams who don't execute as well as Butler are "underachieving".
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chef
Bench Warmer
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Post by chef on Jan 3, 2011 11:24:33 GMT -5
I feel the talent difference between Purdue and Butler is minimal if any. Both teams are incredibly well coached especially in the team defense category. I think without question Kelsey Barlow would be a starter for Butler, in all likelihood for Zach Hahn. As for Kansas, on pure talent, they're well ahead of both Purdue and Butler with three projected first rounders (Morris, Morris, and Selby). However, KU doesn't show the desire game in game out on the defensive end that both Purdue and Butler shows. I think most people see a team win because of great defense and they think overachievers, because the most important part of defense is effort.
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Post by valporun on Jan 3, 2011 13:13:23 GMT -5
I feel the talent difference between Purdue and Butler is minimal if any. Both teams are incredibly well coached especially in the team defense category. I think without question Kelsey Barlow would be a starter for Butler, in all likelihood for Zach Hahn. As for Kansas, on pure talent, they're well ahead of both Purdue and Butler with three projected first rounders (Morris, Morris, and Selby). However, KU doesn't show the desire game in game out on the defensive end that both Purdue and Butler shows. I think most people see a team win because of great defense and they think overachievers, because the most important part of defense is effort. The difference I see in team defense between Purdue and Kansas is that Purdue isn't always the biased selection to win their conference. That distinction usually goes to Michigan State or Ohio State. This means Purdue has to focus on defense to show they can compete in the Big Ten. Purdue does it with more than one or two players, and they stay all four years. Ohio State plays that fastbreak style that a lot of teams fall into bad habits with. The thing that gets the Buckeyes, they always get that one talented freshman that fans hope to see stick around, but he essentially goes pro after that first season. Kansas consistently dominates the top of the Big 12, in what I still deem a mostly football conference, though that can be debateable. Their defense is good because they know they can score from the paint, arc, and free throw line, so they don't have to focus so much on scoring as much as crisp play running, and defending the opponent, so they can focus a lot of practice on defending what the other team will do. They might be a talented team, but the rest of the conference doesn't always match up well with them. Of course, the inconsistent coaching doesn't help because the Big 12 does a lot of contract buyouts and need for instant gratification of wins and getting to the NCAA tourney, and not develop a program over enough time to get players comfortable in it, and fans seeing there is a real program building.
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Post by zvillehaze on Jan 3, 2011 18:21:53 GMT -5
I feel the talent difference between Purdue and Butler is minimal if any. Both teams are incredibly well coached especially in the team defense category. I think without question Kelsey Barlow would be a starter for Butler, in all likelihood for Zach Hahn. As for Kansas, on pure talent, they're well ahead of both Purdue and Butler with three projected first rounders (Morris, Morris, and Selby). However, KU doesn't show the desire game in game out on the defensive end that both Purdue and Butler shows. I think most people see a team win because of great defense and they think overachievers, because the most important part of defense is effort. I'd agree, chef. Butler and Purdue are similar programs and do end up recruiting the same kids at times. Even though IU claims they have no talent, I'm sure that Butler would be thrilled to have, and would be winning a lot of games with, in state talent like Jordan Hulls and Derek Elston. The reality is that Crean had one good season when he had three NBA players (including a perennial All-Star) on his roster ... he won't be winning anything at IU until he recruits the same kind of talent there, because he can't coach his way out of a wet paper bag. He can, on the other hand, clap his way out of one. Several sources will confirm that IU has 7 or 8 "Rivals Top 150" players on their current roster. The fact that IU fans still support Crean because he "has no talent" is laughable, but enjoyable for some!
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rink
Bench Warmer
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Post by rink on Jan 4, 2011 20:10:12 GMT -5
Butler fans (Stax and I) don't equate that with "overachieving" because executing at a high level is the expectation of the coaching staff and something they've done for a while. I guess our view would be that teams who don't execute as well as Butler are "underachieving". This is one of the greatest things I've ever read on this board. Maybe with a new coaching staff at Valpo....
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Post by vu72 on Jan 17, 2011 11:59:48 GMT -5
Caught Butler on an off day? Check the stats. They made 19 of 20 FTs. Now that was an off day. The final score had nothing to do with the reality of the game. Inspite of how much of an off day WE WERE HAVING, we were down by 5 with 9 minutes to go. The fouling at the end only padded ther score as they made every shot. Being a passionate fan is one thing, but being utterly irrational is another thing entirely. The teams are not remotely close. You know, after the Wright State game, I'm beginning to understand the genius of this Title guy. It is looking more and more like he may very well be correct.
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Post by valpofan56 on Jan 17, 2011 12:07:12 GMT -5
Being a passionate fan is one thing, but being utterly irrational is another thing entirely. The teams are not remotely close. You know, after the Wright State game, I'm beginning to understand the genius of this Title guy. It is looking more and more like he may very well be correct. As far as I'm concerned '72, until we actually beat Butler for once, he's right. Hopefully we don't have to wait long though (like more than 12 days).
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Post by vu72 on Jan 17, 2011 12:16:22 GMT -5
'56, I'm not even trying to say that we are better than Butler. I'm reacting to the stupidity of saying we "aren't remotely close". So, do you still think he is right? If so, maybe you are being "irrational" as title accused me of being.
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Post by valpofan56 on Jan 17, 2011 12:51:20 GMT -5
'56, I'm not even trying to say that we are better than Butler. I'm reacting to the stupidity of saying we "aren't remotely close". So, do you still think he is right? If so, maybe you are being "irrational" as title accused me of being. I hope we are close! But like I said, until we get off of this 0-8 schneid against them (since we were announced as becoming HL members), I can't say we are close. If this team wants to be considered a true contender in the HL they MUST beat this Butler team at home. No excuses.
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Post by stlvufan on Jan 17, 2011 13:02:06 GMT -5
'56, I'm not even trying to say that we are better than Butler. I'm reacting to the stupidity of saying we "aren't remotely close". So, do you still think he is right? If so, maybe you are being "irrational" as title accused me of being. I hope we are close! But like I said, until we get off of this 0-8 schneid against them (since we were announced as becoming HL members), I can't say we are close. If this team wants to be considered a true contender in the HL they MUST beat this Butler team at home. No excuses. I agree with 56.
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Post by justducky on Jan 17, 2011 13:48:41 GMT -5
We should all thank titlein2011 for his basketball insight. I am sure that his "aren't remotely close" quote will be posted in the VU locker room following the Green Bay game. Other than Indy the entire midwest would love to see Butler try on the shoes of the 3 seed and see how they fit. Even better would be a burst bubble team crying that they might have gotten that last at large bid if only they had a chance to play and beat a top notch bracketbuster opponent. Once again my thanks to titlein2011, with friends like you Butler doesn't need enemies. THE HORIZON LEAGUE SMELLS BLOOD
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Post by valpofan56 on Jan 17, 2011 15:43:33 GMT -5
We should all thank titlein2011 for his basketball insight. I am sure that his "aren't remotely close" quote will be posted in the VU locker room following the Green Bay game. Yeah, I'm sure the Valpo players care what some anonymous Butler fan thinks
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Post by wh on Jan 17, 2011 17:10:13 GMT -5
You know, after the Wright State game, I'm beginning to understand the genius of this Title guy. It is looking more and more like he may very well be correct. As far as I'm concerned '72, until we actually beat Butler for once, he's right. Hopefully we don't have to wait long though (like more than 12 days). For those who couldn't see it before, hopefully it's become apparent by now that Butler IS "remotely close" in talent to SEVERAL teams in the HL, not just us. The teams that were mentally prepared to play this year's version instead of last year's memory can testify to that. Hopefully, we can develop the same mindset so we don't trip over our own nerves the next time. In the meantime, obviously they're still the kings until someone knocks them off their pedestal, and all that good stuff.
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